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+--- Thread: An Obvious Confession and an Apology (/showthread.php?tid=33792)
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - Jiggly_333 - 07-18-2021
Anyway, I've now logged out of the Takamori account permanently. If I return to the ISFL, it will be as myself again. I'm going to wait until after classes start to see if I can make time. I wasn't expecting such a respectful response from the league. Even those who disagreed with what I did expressed their opinions in a respectful way and I appreciate that. It gives me a bit of hope that I might finally get a chance to fix things.
So I guess I'll see you in September or not at all.
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - Oles - 07-18-2021
(07-18-2021, 02:38 AM)DeadlyPlayer Wrote:(07-18-2021, 01:56 AM)DeadlyPlayer Wrote: yeah nah, should anyone be bullied no. Did he also make multiple people uncomfortable and throw himself into the middle of drama? Yes. Does he deserve a fresh start? Not my
Listen, if I had my way, I would have no problem with a new account and no one knowing. But the way Oles was really trying to whitewash the history was a little upsetting. I fully believe in you as a user. I enjoyed our limited interactions as takamori.
I'm gonna say this loud and clear, so there is no confusion. I watched Jiggly first hand get bullied and harassed to his face and to his back, in chats he was never in, and in chats where he could simply ask a question. I am stating my experiences and what I've seen happen regarding his name. You can absolutely go into any chat and find unsolicited Jiggly hate, and you can talk to a lot of past and present users who hate jiggly simply because of their locker room and never once interacted with jiggly. People who have been here for half of the time I have, and have seen even less of what jiggly has gone through need to stop stating that I'm white washing history, especially if I'm referencing history that you were not present for. Yes, jiggly has done his fair share of things that can rub people the wrong way, and yes, his reputation has had some issues because of his actions, but when one of the first things you hear when you join a league in season 2 is to avoid someone named jiggly, and that he's a weird dude and that OCO (who had jiggly at the time) was worse off because of having him on the team, it sticks. Jiggly's reputation has had major issues because people do not let go, and people constantly perpetuate the harassment and bullying. I saw it when I first joined the league, when I was a DSFL gm, when I was an ISFL gm, when I was running the entire DSFL, and everything since, instead of worrying about whether I'm white washing history, focus on making the league a better place for people so that we don't have another situation like jiggly where he can do no right no matter what.
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - Oles - 07-18-2021
(07-18-2021, 12:01 AM)iStegosauruz Wrote: That all being said, blanket allowing second accounts with no repercussions is a dangerous thing to do. The biggest glaring issue that I had is that with the ability to create a new anonymous account came the detachment of reality from a lot of situations. The league can already be a toxic place as is and allowing someone to say or do whatever they like and then pull a ripcord and be an entirely new person only increases the toxicity in my mind. In the status quo - or a status quo where anonymous second accounts aren't allowed - you have to pick and choose your words to some extent because the reputation you build follows you. If that didn't happen there's less of an incentive to pick and choose your words. Thats a negative for the league in my mind.
The second issue I had with allowing anonymous second accounts was the issue that it creates with potential "revenge" accounts. We'd all hate it if someone created an account, strategically tried to get a team to draft them, and then retired immediately to fuck that team over out of spite for something done previously. There's a way for allowing it to be weaponized thats also a negative for the league.
I'm gonna be completely honest, I think both of these issues are pretty BS. We already have a toxic league in which people constantly say things anonymously, and then you have users encouraging it through a confidential article, but a alt account is where the line is drawn? What was done over the past few days was much worse than anything that has happened with this alt accounts, except for the zamir alt account issue.
The second issue is what i feel like is the most bs though. These revenge account scenarios seem to just be an issue that's been made up to villainize the alt account debate. Someone can already use a vpn, work for a month or two and then retire as revenge and you may never know as long as they covered their tracks well. Banning alt accounts doesn't mean anything for this issue if someone can be smart enough to keep their tracks covered, and i'm pretty sure someone going out of their way to hurt a team in this manner is going to cover their bases. Could also be as simple as outlawing the action, but not alt accounts. Outlaw revenge accounts, make it so that it's the same as a multi punishment, and then if a revenge account is found to have hurt a team make it so that they receive a draft pick of similar value in the next draft class. So if the player is a high 2nd round pick, then you compensate that team with a pick in the 2nd. There are plenty of ways to separate the actions and allow alt accounts while banning revenge accounts.
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - iStegosauruz - 07-18-2021
(07-18-2021, 10:18 PM)Oles Wrote:(07-18-2021, 12:01 AM)iStegosauruz Wrote: That all being said, blanket allowing second accounts with no repercussions is a dangerous thing to do. The biggest glaring issue that I had is that with the ability to create a new anonymous account came the detachment of reality from a lot of situations. The league can already be a toxic place as is and allowing someone to say or do whatever they like and then pull a ripcord and be an entirely new person only increases the toxicity in my mind. In the status quo - or a status quo where anonymous second accounts aren't allowed - you have to pick and choose your words to some extent because the reputation you build follows you. If that didn't happen there's less of an incentive to pick and choose your words. Thats a negative for the league in my mind.
The second issue I had with allowing anonymous second accounts was the issue that it creates with potential "revenge" accounts. We'd all hate it if someone created an account, strategically tried to get a team to draft them, and then retired immediately to fuck that team over out of spite for something done previously. There's a way for allowing it to be weaponized thats also a negative for the league.
I'm gonna be completely honest, I think both of these issues are pretty BS. We already have a toxic league in which people constantly say things anonymously, and then you have users encouraging it through a confidential article, but a alt account is where the line is drawn? What was done over the past few days was much worse than anything that has happened with this alt accounts, except for the zamir alt account issue.
The second issue is what i feel like is the most bs though. These revenge account scenarios seem to just be an issue that's been made up to villainize the alt account debate. Someone can already use a vpn, work for a month or two and then retire as revenge and you may never know as long as they covered their tracks well. Banning alt accounts doesn't mean anything for this issue if someone can be smart enough to keep their tracks covered, and i'm pretty sure someone going out of their way to hurt a team in this manner is going to cover their bases. Could also be as simple as outlawing the action, but not alt accounts. Outlaw revenge accounts, make it so that it's the same as a multi punishment, and then if a revenge account is found to have hurt a team make it so that they receive a draft pick of similar value in the next draft class. So if the player is a high 2nd round pick, then you compensate that team with a pick in the 2nd. There are plenty of ways to separate the actions and allow alt accounts while banning revenge accounts.
On the first issue - with that logic to me what you're saying is that if we can't fix EVERYTHING with an issue we shouldn't fix any part of it. We're never going to cure toxicity completely but we can sure take steps to close routes it can occur through or that might increase it.
On the second I don't disagree that there are potential other avenues we could take to solve the issue. The league management during my time here has been notoriously against compensation picks. I'm not personally totally against them but I think it would require a complete overhaul of some of the ways we do things. Even the scenario you laid out with providing an equivalent compensation pick doesn't entirely rectify the impact to the team that a revenge account can have. A season - especially early in a player's career - can be worth upwards of 150TPE. If a pick flames out getting one down the road is better than not getting one at all however it can cause issues with a team's timeline for their build. Its not a 1:1: solution.
On the VPN aspect of it once again I don't disagree - if someone wants to do something hard enough they'll find a way to make it work. Once again, similar to the previous comment in my first paragraph above, just because there's still ways for something to occur doesn't mean we shouldn't restrict it to make it harder though.
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - Oles - 07-18-2021
(07-18-2021, 10:55 PM)iStegosauruz Wrote:(07-18-2021, 10:18 PM)Oles Wrote:(07-18-2021, 12:01 AM)iStegosauruz Wrote: That all being said, blanket allowing second accounts with no repercussions is a dangerous thing to do. The biggest glaring issue that I had is that with the ability to create a new anonymous account came the detachment of reality from a lot of situations. The league can already be a toxic place as is and allowing someone to say or do whatever they like and then pull a ripcord and be an entirely new person only increases the toxicity in my mind. In the status quo - or a status quo where anonymous second accounts aren't allowed - you have to pick and choose your words to some extent because the reputation you build follows you. If that didn't happen there's less of an incentive to pick and choose your words. Thats a negative for the league in my mind.
The second issue I had with allowing anonymous second accounts was the issue that it creates with potential "revenge" accounts. We'd all hate it if someone created an account, strategically tried to get a team to draft them, and then retired immediately to fuck that team over out of spite for something done previously. There's a way for allowing it to be weaponized thats also a negative for the league.
I'm gonna be completely honest, I think both of these issues are pretty BS. We already have a toxic league in which people constantly say things anonymously, and then you have users encouraging it through a confidential article, but a alt account is where the line is drawn? What was done over the past few days was much worse than anything that has happened with this alt accounts, except for the zamir alt account issue.
The second issue is what i feel like is the most bs though. These revenge account scenarios seem to just be an issue that's been made up to villainize the alt account debate. Someone can already use a vpn, work for a month or two and then retire as revenge and you may never know as long as they covered their tracks well. Banning alt accounts doesn't mean anything for this issue if someone can be smart enough to keep their tracks covered, and i'm pretty sure someone going out of their way to hurt a team in this manner is going to cover their bases. Could also be as simple as outlawing the action, but not alt accounts. Outlaw revenge accounts, make it so that it's the same as a multi punishment, and then if a revenge account is found to have hurt a team make it so that they receive a draft pick of similar value in the next draft class. So if the player is a high 2nd round pick, then you compensate that team with a pick in the 2nd. There are plenty of ways to separate the actions and allow alt accounts while banning revenge accounts.
On the first issue - with that logic to me what you're saying is that if we can't fix EVERYTHING with an issue we shouldn't fix any part of it. We're never going to cure toxicity completely but we can sure take steps to close routes it can occur through or that might increase it.
On the second I don't disagree that there are potential other avenues we could take to solve the issue. The league management during my time here has been notoriously against compensation picks. I'm not personally totally against them but I think it would require a complete overhaul of some of the ways we do things. Even the scenario you laid out with providing an equivalent compensation pick doesn't entirely rectify the impact to the team that a revenge account can have. A season - especially early in a player's career - can be worth upwards of 150TPE. If a pick flames out getting one down the road is better than not getting one at all however it can cause issues with a team's timeline for their build. Its not a 1:1: solution.
On the VPN aspect of it once again I don't disagree - if someone wants to do something hard enough they'll find a way to make it work. Once again, similar to the previous comment in my first paragraph above, just because there's still ways for something to occur doesn't mean we shouldn't restrict it to make it harder though.
We should try to fix what we can, if it sounds like I'm saying we shouldn't then that's my bad on the wording aspect. On the first issue my biggest issue is the fact that toxic things in the league happen every day, and the most recent case is seemingly going to go by without any issue other than an apology as if it was an oopsie. The platform that was given was arguably worse than what any alt account platform could get, as if gave a massive avenue for people to be extremely shitty and toxic with 0 repercussions. I'm saying that if the league is going to focus on driving out toxicity, there are plenty of things that also bring toxicity that should be looked at.
As for comp picks and team timelines, yeah it hurts more to lose out on someone you expected to be a part of the team earlier, but a similar value comp pick (even if drafts may have different active numbers and different values on those) would have been a good middle ground between outright banning alts and doing nothing. As long as it's clear that it's for extreme cases, aka the revenge account cases, and not just any player who goes IA, I don't see why people would oppose that.
Of course, I'm not in HO and I don't have much pull anymore, so I really don't know what HO is and isn't doing and I can't actively speculate on actions that are being taken, I'm just very disappointed that this situation even happened, it feels like the rules were very rushed in response to zamir and that situation, and there was not enough time and input to resolve this issue without a total ban. I know I'm not gonna see eye to eye with people on this topic, but I feel like alt accounts would be a small part of the community, and an even smaller part in which people would exploit them if anyone even did. To me it's an answer to a question that didn't need to be answered, especially when the one person who exploited the alt accounts and ruined it was known for toxicity and had been constantly punished for actions he had taken.
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - MrStennett - 07-19-2021
(07-18-2021, 10:11 PM)Oles Wrote:I gotta throw you some love here, man. Knowing how long you’ve been around (I feel old and I’ve only been here since S11), I give a lot of respect for sticking up for Jiggs like this. I’ve had my own fair share of experiences with him here and in other leagues and can honestly say none of them have been “bad”. The two days that I was his “co-GM” in Chicago after the so-called Communist Revolution could have probably been handled better, but that was on all of us in the War Room at the time. You would never know it though, since every thing I’ve ever heard about that situation was that “Jiggly tried to take over Chicago” or “that weird guy is causing problems again”. There was a lot of shit that was worse by far than that. Everywhere I’ve been that he has also (OCO, Chicago, and the Crabs in PBE) he’s been nothing but a good dude. Yeah, he gets stressed easily and sometimes that comes across poorly with other people. He does have to own some of what has happened to him, but no where near as much as he gets.(07-18-2021, 02:38 AM)DeadlyPlayer Wrote:(07-18-2021, 01:56 AM)DeadlyPlayer Wrote: yeah nah, should anyone be bullied no. Did he also make multiple people uncomfortable and throw himself into the middle of drama? Yes. Does he deserve a fresh start? Not my
Listen, if I had my way, I would have no problem with a new account and no one knowing. But the way Oles was really trying to whitewash the history was a little upsetting. I fully believe in you as a user. I enjoyed our limited interactions as takamori.
I'm gonna say this loud and clear, so there is no confusion. I watched Jiggly first hand get bullied and harassed to his face and to his back, in chats he was never in, and in chats where he could simply ask a question. I am stating my experiences and what I've seen happen regarding his name. You can absolutely go into any chat and find unsolicited Jiggly hate, and you can talk to a lot of past and present users who hate jiggly simply because of their locker room and never once interacted with jiggly. People who have been here for half of the time I have, and have seen even less of what jiggly has gone through need to stop stating that I'm white washing history, especially if I'm referencing history that you were not present for. Yes, jiggly has done his fair share of things that can rub people the wrong way, and yes, his reputation has had some issues because of his actions, but when one of the first things you hear when you join a league in season 2 is to avoid someone named jiggly, and that he's a weird dude and that OCO (who had jiggly at the time) was worse off because of having him on the team, it sticks. Jiggly's reputation has had major issues because people do not let go, and people constantly perpetuate the harassment and bullying. I saw it when I first joined the league, when I was a DSFL gm, when I was an ISFL gm, when I was running the entire DSFL, and everything since, instead of worrying about whether I'm white washing history, focus on making the league a better place for people so that we don't have another situation like jiggly where he can do no right no matter what.
RE: An Obvious Confession and an Apology - deadlunatic - 07-19-2021
(07-17-2021, 12:06 PM)Crodyman Wrote: Bullying is bad. Memeing a person until they leave is bad. Making someone feel like they need to change their whole identity in order to be welcome here is bad. This is a fake football league for fun. This whole situation is an embarrasing miscarriage of justice.
Everything this man said.