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+---- Thread: *Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats (/showthread.php?tid=13425)
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - Beaver - 05-07-2019
(05-08-2019, 12:32 AM)MrStennett Wrote:The recent suggestion promoting the abolishment of the o-line position was for one very simple reason: we need players. Now, this may seem like a strange step to take here, but hear me out. With expansion about to read it’s ugly head (which in my mind was a mistake altogether brought about as an overreaction to one overly large draft class, but I digress) the league in general is going to be in short supply of active users at many skill positions.True, the best way to encourage active users is to take away their voluntary choices.
(05-08-2019, 12:32 AM)MrStennett Wrote:While there is no inherently good way to dole out “bots” and whatnot to most of these positions, there is a current system in place to do so with the o-line. It seems like quite a waste of talent and activity to have users in a position where you have such a high entrance point that many users never make it out of the DSFL. These players could be making WRs or DBs or DLs that will eventually be much more useful to their teams than at OL.Exactly, we should fix that. It's absurd to have offensive line be completely useless unless you're a max earner - in which case you're better off at another position.
(05-08-2019, 12:32 AM)MrStennett Wrote:Most teams can field a fairly competitive OL, entirely without the use of active players. On the other hand, why would we boost a position? If you choose to play OL, that’s a decision that you make as a user. The league goes to pains to spell out why it is an “undesirable” position. Picking something you know is going to be hard and then expecting the league to make it easier on you is asinine.You already pointed out why we should boost it. It's a position that demands you be a max earner to be competitive at the position but is not a position that a max earner should be at because of its comparatively low impact on the field. Make it more semi-active friendly like Kicker or Defensive Line. Thank you for your support brother Stennett.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - manicmav36 - 05-07-2019
(05-07-2019, 11:34 PM)Beaver Wrote:This is a really good point.
We have a position that is so broken that nobody's passed 250 TPE in it yet not once have we taken action to make this position more viable. The time for action is now, thank you brother manic for your support.
Again, if the position were more fun, we would've seen that broken numerous times by now and we would have many OL running around our glorious league. But we haven't, and we don't.
If by broken you mean inherently no fun, then yes, we completely agree. It's the same reason we struggle to get creates on the DL or at CB. They just don't accrue stats like other positions. Giving them better base builds or more TPE won't change that.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - Beaver - 05-08-2019
(05-08-2019, 12:45 AM)manicmav36 Wrote:Again, if the position were more fun, we would've seen that broken numerous times by now and we would have many OL running around our glorious league. But we haven't, and we don't.By broken I mean that the way it is set up now makes absolutely no sense: you'll only find a modicum of success at the position if you're a max earner but it's a position that a max earner is wasted at. The design of the position should be altered so that it's more friendly for semi-actives.
If by broken you mean inherently no fun, then yes, we completely agree. It's the same reason we struggle to get creates on the DL or at CB. They just don't accrue stats like other positions. Giving them better base builds or more TPE won't change that.
Not to mention that your magical 250 TPE barrier is nonsense. We go to great lengths to prevent new users from creating offensive linemen so of course we didn't see many created until we started getting draft classes of recreates. Two people failing to earn 200 TPE is hardly a damning indictment and I know you're not suggesting that once players do pass that arbitrary barrier (next week!) you'll suddenly find yourself a cheerleader for the offensive line.
Not everyone cares about stats. "inherently no fun" lmao. Just because some people didn't enjoy their time on the offensive line doesn't mean that nobody is capable of enjoying it. All this boils down to is: don't take away other people's choice because it's not one that you would make.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - manicmav36 - 05-08-2019
(05-08-2019, 12:13 AM)Beaver Wrote:Not to mention that your magical 250 TPE barrier is nonsense. We go to great lengths to prevent new users from creating offensive linemen so of course we didn't see many created until we started getting draft classes of recreates. Two people failing to earn 200 TPE is hardly a damning indictment and I know you're not suggesting that once players do pass that arbitrary barrier (next week!) you'll suddenly find yourself a cheerleader for the offensive line.
Not everyone cares about stats. "inherently no fun" lmao. Just because some people didn't enjoy their time on the offensive line doesn't mean that nobody is capable of enjoying it. All this boils down to is: don't take away other people's choice because it's not one that you would make.
Of course 250 TPE isn't some magical barrier that won't automatically convert me to a true believer of the OL prophecy. It is, however, a quick, and generally accurate, barometer of someone's interest in the league. Historically that has been the all in or all out moment for people making players.
I appreciate your passion, but the contempt is unnecessary. IF the vote passes, and that is an if, current OL players will be allowed to finish out their careers if they so choose. No one would be taking your player away from you.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - Beaver - 05-08-2019
(05-08-2019, 01:24 AM)manicmav36 Wrote:Of course 250 TPE isn't some magical barrier that won't automatically convert me to a true believer of the OL prophecy. It is, however, a quick, and generally accurate, barometer of someone's interest in the league. Historically that has been the all in or all out moment for people making players.But you'd be taking away a choice from myself when I recreate and others when they re/create. And for what? Because other people didn't enjoy the position?
I appreciate your passion, but the contempt is unnecessary. IF the vote passes, and that is an if, current OL players will be allowed to finish out their careers if they so choose. No one would be taking your player away from you.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - PaytonM34 - 05-08-2019
(05-07-2019, 10:36 PM)manicmav36 Wrote:Fun fact, since the introduction of OL bots in S3, we have yet to have a user break 250 TPE at that position. While I suspect we may have a couple that may do so in the lastest NSFL rookie class
Dude there has been 2 total OL creates if you don't include the s15 draft, why is your point based on the tpe of 2 users, one of which was active until people told him OL was a terrible idea. The so called "small milestone" is achieved by about 20% of all created players, having people stick with the league might not be as easy as you think
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - 124715 - 05-08-2019
(05-08-2019, 12:04 AM)TomHanks Wrote:then we know it's because the position doesn't hold enough interest at a widespread level.
Here's the problem, though - we already know that is true. Back in S3, a prospect who was a late-first caliber prospect went 1st overall just because he was OL. Back in S2, the only team that had a >50% active OL was the Outlaws, and their highest TPE OL was a multi. The S1 Baltimore OL was completely bots iirc, and it forced them to spend three consecutive picks on OL in a draft that was every bit as good as S15. Those three OL were all reaches, and only one of them worked out (it was slm). But my point is there are soooooo many examples of insufficient interest at OL. The examples keep coming, too. Every single human OL except some from this class have either switched away or gone inactive.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - manicmav36 - 05-08-2019
(05-08-2019, 08:05 AM)PaytonM34 Wrote:Dude there has been 2 total OL creates if you don't include the s15 draft, why is your point based on the tpe of 2 users, one of which was active until people told him OL was a terrible idea. The so called "small milestone" is achieved by about 20% of all created players, having people stick with the league might not be as easy as you think
I don't know where the 20% came from, but that's just not true. In the S15 rookie class alone we already have about 15% that have broken that number, and about 30% that are above 200 and still updating.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - timeconsumer - 05-08-2019
(05-08-2019, 01:32 AM)Beaver Wrote:But you'd be taking away a choice from myself when I recreate and others when they re/create. And for what? Because other people didn't enjoy the position?
We didn't move away from all-player OL to all-bot OL just because people didn't enjoy the position. That was a part of it, but a very small part. The main reason we moved away from it was because there weren't enough active OL and there were a ton of active DL and it wasn't uncommon for a team to get 10 sacks in a game. It was completely out of hand. We also didn't have enough actives overall as the S2 expansion was rushed and a ton of teams were starting half inactives. Then there was the problem that most offensive linemen in the league at that time had only created there because they wanted to be a position of high demand, and really didn't enjoy playing as one. We killed three birds with one stone.
Maybe your solution is fine, maybe it isn't, I don't know. But here are my issues with what you've written out:
Nothing is tested. You want to pass a significant change without test sims to show how much it changes things? That's a very hard sell.
We're about to go through expansion and there are serious concerns that there are not going to be enough actives to go around. We've returned to the same amount of weekly activity checks as we were pre-giant S15 draft class. And now we need ~40 more players to fill rosters. Encouraging more OL creates is creating supply at the position we have an unlimited supply of right now.
What is your proposed solution for the cap hit issue? Does it remain the same? Are we going to return to another proposal in three seasons because no team will pay a player OL more than $5m a season?
I get that you want to play OL and you want to be viable immediately and help your team and shit like that but at least test some stuff or have someone run tests for you. And maybe wait until after the expansion so we really have an idea of what the landscape of the league looks like. There is far too much uncertainty in the league right now and people are not going to be willing to take a leap of faith at times like this.
*Don't Kill Offensive Linemen You Twats - run_CMC - 05-08-2019
Oh, we’re doing this again? Lemme get the popcorn
In seriousness, idk why you would remove a position when it’s not as if it’s overpowered, and if a player tries it and doesn’t enjoy it, they’ve got a full season to use a DSFL free position switch
Keep it up OL dudes
Edit: oh I didn’t really read this thread because I’m a dummy
OL shouldn’t be buffer either. QB also needs to wait a while to be good. They deal with it