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+--- Thread: Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part (/showthread.php?tid=15542)
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - TeyonSchavari - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:06 PM)124715 Wrote:As RM head, I feel like I'm relevant here, so I'd like to explain. The job of the rookie mentor is simple and twofold, like I explained to everyone who applied or asked. The two responsibilities are as follows:
1. Approve new players.
2. Answer questions in discord and onsite.
As you may be able to tell, it is responsibility 1 that necessitates mod powers. The only two things that are relevant are editing titles and locking topics. I didn't think I'd be expected to "train" people not to break the IP rules in the rulebook. The relevant training is provided.
I think where the disconnect is that we know the "What", but we don't know the "How" or the "Why". There are a lot of pinned posts in the rookie mentor discord that help answer these and are great, and the veteran mentors are very helpful and responsive. But putting it all in one place as a part of a guide would be beneficial I feel like.
For example, sure I know that I need to approve new players, but there are a lot of steps that go along with that which before taking the position I did not know were involved. All I've seen as a player was an approval message from a RM and assumed a different role took care of moving the players.
Would a guide have prevented Butters from posting an IP? I don't know, maybe not. But the ability to say "hey, he was provided this guide at the time he was hired, which outlines his duties and urges him to review the rulebook" removes any question over who is at fault or what could be done better.
I'm just putting this out there as a potential area to look at and improve in the future, and I mean no disrespect with this response
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - manicmav36 - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:12 PM)Dylandeluxe Wrote:If that's something that HO thinks would be beneficial I wouldn't be opposed. But I am a full time worker and student and might be hesitant to take the roll for fear of negligence due to time commitment.
Because no on in HO has a full-time job, or a second job, or 2 children under the age of three?
We've posted about openings for HO nearly every off-season since I started, and we rarely get any applicants, if we get any at all. This would be a fantastic time to put in your application and try to address your concerns and any perceived shortcomings from the inside.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - Dylandeluxe - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:38 PM)manicmav36 Wrote:Because no on in HO has a full-time job, or a second job, or 2 children under the age of three?
We've posted about openings for HO nearly every off-season since I started, and we rarely get any applicants, if we get any at all. This would be a fantastic time to put in your application and try to address your concerns and any perceived shortcomings from the inside.
Jesus that statement was in no way shape or form directed at any HO member. Way to reach and be sensitive.
I was just stating a self evaluation. And based on the hostility felt in this post it's obvious I won't be welcomed with open arms if I take a position.
Fuck me for trying to open a line of conversation about trying to improve the league for all parties.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - manicmav36 - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 03:42 PM)Dylandeluxe Wrote:Jesus that statement was in no way shape or form directed at any HO member. Way to reach and be sensitive.
I was just stating a self evaluation. And based on the hostility felt in this post it's obvious I won't be welcomed with open arms if I take a position.
Fuck me for trying to open a line of conversation about trying to improve the league for all parties.
You don't start a conversation with a title "Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part."
As for being welcomed into HO, I would have no qualms. Numbers and I used to argue all the time and I voted to allow him in, and I'm happy I did. We need new blood on HO, with a fresh outlook. Why not you?
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - ADwyer87 - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:18 PM)Dylandeluxe Wrote:I am not arguing for someone to be walked through every rule line by line.i suppose? my thing would just be that, #1 that sounds exactly like all the links you get in todays society where its like "i have read the terms and service" and you just check yes to that because aint nobody got time to read those things, and #2 I dont see how this makes people accountable, but just having a rulebook doesnt
It could be something as simple as having a thread that say "DylanDeluxe has been selected for *insert role here* by responding to this post DylanDeluxe acknowledges the responsibilities that come with mod powers and has reviewed league rules"
And me being the person might go "Oh shit you know what I better go look at those again"
And the rules to apply to everyone. You could add a similar disclaimer in the Rookie Guide saying "That by creating a new player you are acknowledging that you have read the league rules" Because as its listed under "additional links" which gives the impression that its not something I need to click on right away as a new user.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - Dylandeluxe - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:45 PM)manicmav36 Wrote:You don't start a conversation with a title "Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part."
As for being welcomed into HO, I would have no qualms. Numbers and I used to argue all the time and I voted to allow him in, and I'm happy I did. We need new blood on HO, with a fresh outlook. Why not you?
As stated before the post was supposed to be click baity. I agree that there should be new blood. I just know that based on my own time commitments at this moment I wouldn't be able to commit to it like I personally would like. Once my schedule free's up in the afternoons I wouldn't be opposed at all to applying for HO. But I'd also like to enjoy my time as a new player for a season or two. I am not saying I have all the answers and maybe my post came across the wrong way.
But I merely wanted to get people in here to talk.
I am rambling. Here in a season or two I will consider applying.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - Dylandeluxe - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:48 PM)ADwyer87 Wrote:i suppose? my thing would just be that, #1 that sounds exactly like all the links you get in todays society where its like "i have read the terms and service" and you just check yes to that because aint nobody got time to read those things, and #2 I dont see how this makes people accountable, but just having a rulebook doesnt
I won't argue that it;s not all that different from it but it at least provides one more opportunity for someone in a position to accidentally abuse mod powers to review the rules again. Like when I was in the military and you made a certain rank they send you through these NCO courses that basically remind you of the responsibility and rules to follow again based on your new rank/position.
But if you think that having the rulesbook just posted is sufficient enough then so be it. I'm new to this whole sim league thing so I thought I'd voice my concern.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - ADwyer87 - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:45 PM)manicmav36 Wrote:You don't start a conversation with a title "Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part."this
As for being welcomed into HO, I would have no qualms. Numbers and I used to argue all the time and I voted to allow him in, and I'm happy I did. We need new blood on HO, with a fresh outlook. Why not you?
first of all, i think there's a disconnect between you and us. I think we are a bit angry about this, and should calm down a bit, but when you tag us saying we're failures and hypocrites, it's hard to come in here and not be a little hot and bothered.
and second, we accept lots of people, not just ones I agree with. This might be a dated reference, but I didn't always agree with bovo, but I campaigned for him to apply to HO because I knew he was a good man for the job. I do the same with with nunccoepi now. I was skeptical of manicmav as HO and now he's the second longest term guy in HO and is my right hand man, so to speak. I was skeptical of letting Frick in as HO as well, and he turned out to be the hardest working HO we've ever had.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - Dylandeluxe - 09-18-2019
(09-18-2019, 02:54 PM)ADwyer87 Wrote:this
first of all, i think there's a disconnect between you and us. I think we are a bit angry about this, and should calm down a bit, but when you tag us saying we're failures and hypocrites, it's hard to come in here and not be a little hot and bothered.
and second, we accept lots of people, not just ones I agree with. This might be a dated reference, but I didn't always agree with bovo, but I campaigned for him to apply to HO because I knew he was a good man for the job. I do the same with with nunccoepi now. I was skeptical of manicmav as HO and now he's the second longest term guy in HO and is my right hand man, so to speak. I was skeptical of letting Frick in as HO as well, and he turned out to be the hardest working HO we've ever had.
Well then I apologize for the title of the post. I could have thought of a better title but it's what came to mind when I sat down to write this on my break.
After I get a season or two under my belt I'll submit for HO and see what you guys think at that point.
Why Butter's Punishment is a failure on HO's part - woelkers - 09-18-2019
First things first: I don't know that I would go so far as to say that this is a "failure" or that HO is "hypocritical", but I do feel that HO should be squinting harder at the conversation here and be looking for the ways it can improve in the future. I think we, the non-HO members of the league (that's most of us), are looking for transparency and accountability here. We don't need HO to be perfect, but we do deserve to know what's happening AND why it's happening. I'm not arguing against the decision that's been made; I'm saying that I shouldn't have to hear third hand what the relevant precedent for the decision is, or why a decision is being made when it goes against precedent or has no precedent to be based on. And, of course, maybe this discussion post doesn't even come to the forums, or maybe the incident doesn't happen in the first place, if members feel they can go to HO with their concerns directly.
Second, I want to echo Teyon; while numbers isn't wrong to say that RM isn't a difficult job, it is blatantly unfair to say that even a person with a job that is seemingly so simple does not deserve any direction. Maybe we don't need to direct every person in this league to the rule book, but hell, it would be nice if the exact procedure for approving a new rookie were laid out explicitly somewhere instead of being frankensteined together every time we hire a new RM. And it would be especially nice if we had access to everything we needed to perform the job; I still don't know where to find the waiver wire, assuming I even have access. I realize that that might not fall directly on HO, but I do believe HO should play a role in ensuring that the individuals in every league job are receiving the support they need for this league to be successful.
Third, I can tell even from the original post that DD intended no offense by this, even if the title is unfair. We're all adults or relatively mature teenagers here, so we should be able to have a civil conversation in this thread, give people the benefit of the doubt, and try to move this league forward in a direction we can all feel good about.