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+---- Thread: *The TE position has a problem (/showthread.php?tid=3258)
*The TE position has a problem - Sweetwater - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 01:07 AM)Ballerstorm Wrote:Fwiw I have never seen a TE have a Gronk or Jimmy type season in the sim, even when they are set as the primary receiver. I haven't done any thorough tests or anything for strictly testing TEs though
That's somewhat disappointing. Obviously Jimmy and Gronk are incredibly rare talent, but they're on teams known for spreading the ball around. But if a TE can't get even like a Greg Olsen year as a primary receiver, then there's an issue with TEs.
*The TE position has a problem - ErMurazor - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 10:55 PM)Sweetwater Wrote:I'd love to hear @ErMurazor 's thoughts on this topic, seeing as he has the sim and could feasibly test changes.
I mean, in terms of NFL speed line backers are faster than some of these vertical tight ends so I don't think that is unrealistic. The same can be said for safeties. I think the mismatch for those positions comes from height just as much as speed and the tight ends have an advantage there in the sim.
If you're looking to be a super fast tight end that role is really filled by the Red Zone Threat WR archetype. Physically it's basically identical to guys like OJ Howard. Jimmy Graham is probably much closer to a red zone threat wide receiver in reality too (it was literally discussed during his franchise tag dispute a few years ago.
![[Image: gTztCjd.png]](http://i.imgur.com/gTztCjd.png)
I did some tests with tight ends with 90 speed NOT as the primary receiver. Tight ends with 90 speed as the primary receiver. And wide receivers with 90 speed playing the tight end position for Dimirio and Maddox, the results are in that order. Basically the sim definitely defers to wide receivers in terms of stats. They both performed better over a season as a wide receiver with the exact same stats they have (and 90 speed) then as a tight end that was the primary receiver...the sim just isn't going to give tight ends monster seasons statistically and if that's what you're looking for the Red Zone Threat WR position is definitely your best bet and probably more in-line with what a move tight end would look like in the NFL.
*The TE position has a problem - timeconsumer - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 02:33 AM)ErMurazor Wrote:If you're looking to be a super fast tight end that role is really filled by the Red Zone Threat WR archetype. Physically it's basically identical to guys like OJ Howard. Jimmy Graham is probably much closer to a red zone threat wide receiver in reality too (it was literally discussed during his franchise tag dispute a few years ago.
Basically what I said above, if you want to have big stats in the TE position, play a red zone WR and line up in the slot in shotgun and spread formations and as a TE in two-TE, i-form, and pro set. If I remember correctly Jimmy Graham lined up as a WR in around 2/3 of his snaps when the Saints hit him with the franchise tag, he was basically a WR.
Also to whoever said something about the Red Zone WR being too small to play out of position as a vertical TE, they have the same max weight.
*The TE position has a problem - SimmerDownBruhh - 08-14-2017
Possibly have to wait until the next installment of DDS for the Tight Ends to be great again. Lol
If there is something good to look at for us, a majority of the TEs this year are hitting double digit catches and some even hit 20+ yard gains so it's not like we can't make moves. Just comes once every blue moon.
*The TE position has a problem - Admin - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 11:18 PM)Sweetwater Wrote:That's somewhat disappointing. Obviously Jimmy and Gronk are incredibly rare talent, but they're on teams known for spreading the ball around. But if a TE can't get even like a Greg Olsen year as a primary receiver, then there's an issue with TEs.I wasn't refering to the archetypes having a problem, I was refering to how the sim seems to work as a whole.
*The TE position has a problem - Admin - 08-14-2017
(08-13-2017, 11:33 PM)ErMurazor Wrote:Basically, tight ends aren't in half the formations .Tight ends are in every offensive formation in DDSPF
*The TE position has a problem - ErMurazor - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 08:56 AM)Ballerstorm Wrote:Tight ends are in every offensive formation in DDSPF
Yea. I'm an idiot. I was thinking two TEs for whatever reason.
*The TE position has a problem - Sweetwater - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 10:55 AM)Ballerstorm Wrote:I wasn't refering to the archetypes having a problem, I was refering to how the sim seems to work as a whole.
I am aware, I may have just misspoken. There is a problem with TE's in the sim itself. It doesn't use them the way they are actually used in the nfl.
(08-14-2017, 07:39 AM)timeconsumer Wrote:If I remember correctly Jimmy Graham lined up as a WR in around 2/3 of his snaps when the Saints hit him with the franchise tag, he was basically a WR.
Also to whoever said something about the Red Zone WR being too small to play out of position as a vertical TE, they have the same max weight.
FWIW, lining up in the slot or wideout does not take away your position. RBs line up out wide all the time, but I wouldn't call Leveon Bell or David Johnson "basically receivers". The difference is that receivers line up as receivers 99% of the time, but TEs don't. That's what's so unique about the position.
(08-14-2017, 07:39 AM)timeconsumer Wrote:Also to whoever said something about the Red Zone WR being too small to play out of position as a vertical TE, they have the same max weight.
But not the same max height, which is the other half of the "smaller" issue.
I'm not saying that TEs should have monster stats, but I don't think they should be having full seasons as a primary receiver that are worse than the average seasons of NFL TEs. Obviously this is something incorrect with the sim, not necessarily with the archetypes.
Listen, I don't really care if anything I've suggested actually gets implemented. But the TE position has become one of the most dynamic roles in the modern NFL, and I hate to see it just cast aside so casually. There was a reason OJ Howard, Even Engram, and David Njoku were taken in the first round, and Red Zone threat WRs weren't really taken until the 3rd. Teams want big, tall guys who can run fast and catch well, and those are TEs.
I guess I'm just not understanding why everyone seems to be so against this.
*The TE position has a problem - timeconsumer - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 04:00 PM)Sweetwater Wrote:I guess I'm just not understanding why everyone seems to be so against this.
I guess I don't understand the problem. We all knew TEs are poor in this sim, as much was stated well before the S1 draft even started (http://nsfl.jcink.net/index.php?showtopic=38&view=findpost&p=245).
If you want to wait for archetype changes and such, sure, go ahead and change speed caps. But I'm the type to find a way right now, and to me the obvious solution is to play a WR as a TE (height doesn't really matter in the sim for that).
If that's not your style, well, wait and see what happens I suppose.
*The TE position has a problem - ErMurazor - 08-14-2017
(08-14-2017, 01:00 PM)Sweetwater Wrote:I am aware, I may have just misspoken. There is a problem with TE's in the sim itself. It doesn't use them the way they are actually used in the nfl.
FWIW, lining up in the slot or wideout does not take away your position. RBs line up out wide all the time, but I wouldn't call Leveon Bell or David Johnson "basically receivers". The difference is that receivers line up as receivers 99% of the time, but TEs don't. That's what's so unique about the position.
But not the same max height, which is the other half of the "smaller" issue.
I'm not saying that TEs should have monster stats, but I don't think they should be having full seasons as a primary receiver that are worse than the average seasons of NFL TEs. Obviously this is something incorrect with the sim, not necessarily with the archetypes.
Listen, I don't really care if anything I've suggested actually gets implemented. But the TE position has become one of the most dynamic roles in the modern NFL, and I hate to see it just cast aside so casually. There was a reason OJ Howard, Even Engram, and David Njoku were taken in the first round, and Red Zone threat WRs weren't really taken until the 3rd. Teams want big, tall guys who can run fast and catch well, and those are TEs.
I guess I'm just not understanding why everyone seems to be so against this.
I think the reason I would say I'm against it is it's a bit of a slippery slope for archetype changes. If we give tight ends more speed because of realism, then are defensive ends going to want more speed too? Myles Garrett is super fast. I guess, based on what we're seeing with the sim and tight ends, what does it do for us by raising the speed cap?
In terms of the tight ends you listed all three of those guys would fit the physical build of the red zone threat wide receiver in the sim. The only NFL player I think you could argue you couldn't build in the sim physically is Jimmy Graham, his speed and size isn't really available to you. Gronk isn't insanely fast and I think he fits into the regular tight end archetypes we have.