![[DEV] ISFL Forums](http://dev.sim-football.com/forums/images/emerald/logo.png "[DEV] ISFL Forums"){kind=logo}
+- [DEV] ISFL Forums (http://dev.sim-football.com/forums)
+-- Forum: Announcements (http://dev.sim-football.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=495)
+--- Forum: Announcements (http://dev.sim-football.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=32)
+---- Forum: Head Office Announcements (http://dev.sim-football.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?fid=230)
+---- Thread: Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet (/showthread.php?tid=5220)
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - Symmetrik - 10-16-2017
(10-16-2017, 12:58 AM)adam2552 Wrote:I think the biggest thing lacking from this response is any way to prevent it from happening again. The league (read Head Office) should be responsible for verifying the salary cap implications of every transaction. While the team is responsible to manage their salary cap, any move that would put them over the cap should be rejected by the league.
It is my opinion that there should be a Google Sheet with all player contracts on it. This way everyone could get a quick glance at salary cap, upcoming FAs, etc. It would take a bit of updating at the beginning of each season, but would be relatively simple to maintain in-season.
Edit: Just to add on, I agree with the rest of the posters that the Legion should not be punished. The transaction should have been rejected by the head office when it put them over the cap without a corresponding move to put them below the cap.
It's not the leagues job to be your fucking calculator
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - Symmetrik - 10-16-2017
(10-16-2017, 03:25 AM)AdamS Wrote:while I'm at it...you said this
A player (KCKolbe) approached another player (RFFO) under contract with the purpose of creating a hold out/trade. Regardless if this was with a bet out in the open, it doesn't matter. It still is one person impacting the other and forcing them to hold out or trade based on the outcome of the bet.
...the player impacted is the one who created the bet by your account and it's disingenuous if not actually dishonest to put the onus on the 2nd person and claim they're impacting the person who's idea it was to begin with
Technically kckolbe was tampering by trying to get Varga to join the Wraiths. It was tampering both ways and was definitely not done in the public forums. They posted the bet there but they obviously came to an agreement about the bet before posting it.
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - kckolbe - 10-16-2017
This is a bit self-important to say, but I think everyone should read this.
A few things. Some for posterity, some clarification, some...other.
1) I have not seen the masses calling for a HARSHER LVL punishment. Quite the opposite. For what it's worth, I've stated elsewhere that leniency should be granted giving how disorganized everything in the DSFL was, especially given that calling up a DSFL player was the major cap-breaker.
2) The original discussion for the bet between RFFO and I took place in NSFL general chat in discord, and I was the one who proposed the bet, with RFFO doing nothing more than instantly agreeing to it. It clearly WAS tampering, and I was the FIRST person to say so. However, as it was "mutual" tampering, with both teams involved standing to lose/gain from it, I thought it legal. After all, giving money to another player is illegal, but monetary bets are not. I felt this was the same exception. The only way a monetary bet is illegal is if the outcome of the bet is considered a given, and I think it is safe to say that there was a chance of Vegas losing this bet.
3) It is true that I am not facing punishment, which might be the only part of the ruling people AREN'T mad about.
4) This isn't directly about the ruling, but...as a kindness, could people stop talking about me "getting out of my obligation?" If you talk to the Legion players, they will tell you that I was 100% ready to follow-through, and not just serve out a sentence, but actually be part of the team. Additionally, if you look at my presser, I'm actively trying to find a way to make this right.
5) Let's look at a couple of things @7hawk77 said in this thread. I am going to bold part of it for emphasis.
Quote:He still has every right to hit FA or do whatever he wants. If he felt the need to honor the deal, he could easily holdout or request a trade or do whatever he wants. That's on him on we wanted to give him that option.
However, the head office felt it very necessary to show that these types of bets are not encouraged and will not be tolerated in the future.
So, per this ruling, a player may make an agreement with another team outside the forums and see it out? So, basically, you personally stated that this activity IS allowed on this site while also stating you are sending a message not to do it?
Additionally, does anyone else feel the HO is simply deflecting this onto me? By Hawk's own words, I can do WHATEVER I WANT regarding this situation, even specifically listing things that would normally be considered unethical.
Quote:I'm not going to debate the ruling because we are happy with it and it's not changing.
Here's the thing, though. You're not happy with it. 1) you aren't happy with it because, by the quotes above, you are still clearly conflicted about the implications. 2) You aren't happy with it because WE, as a community, are not happy with it. And not jut some random people, either. Er, the fucking lifeblood of this league, is not happy. I, the party who SHOULD be happiest about it, am not happy. The GMs of multiple teams, who should be happy to see an opponent weakened, are not happy.
A season ago, that might not have meant anything. But something has changed since then. You now get paid by the league to resolve issues. And this has not been a successful resolution. I think you know that, too, which I realized after it occurred to me that I was being...empowered to make my own decision.
For the record, I know that you did not make this decision on your own. Hell, I know you were kind of pressured to make this announcement because it didn't seem appropriate for a member of the Wraiths to make the announcement saying that the Wraiths weren't going to lose a player, though that decision appeared to have been made a couple of days prior to the announcement. It just took this long due to lack of availability on the rest of the HO, which is a problem.
However, being Head Office doesn't just mean making rulings. Listening is part of the job, and with good reason. While it would be dangerous to give in to mob mentality and blindly follow the loudest voices, making ALL decisions in a vacuum is equally irresponsible.
I urge everyone to check out my presser here. In it, I talk about MY perception of the bet, and the implications of the salary cap violations and resulting punishment. I mentioned a possible solution idea, but welcome feedback on the appropriate values or even other means of resolution. I ask that you read my rationale first. You'll see that I very much want to do right by BOTH teams involved and ask you to keep that goal in mind as you make suggestions.
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - sapp2013 - 10-16-2017
Not necessarily my opinion on the matter, but thinking about all this, the Legion lost out on 2 players because of this, as well as a cap penalty. The Legion had made the required 2 game mark necessary for KC to join them in s5, so regardless of what happened in s4, KC would have had to join them. Varga retiring might have happened anyways, but we cannot be too sure on that. You could also call dependency for the Legion on the fact that they knew KC would be joining them after the 2 wins, and they decided not to make any moves around that player spot. Yes this may be a stretch, but I remember something of this sort from a business law class, so I'm trying to get my money's worth from an overpaid college course.
My point is that some people don't realize how much this ruling may have hurt the legion. And in a league where we are hoping for parity, the gap just got wider.
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - Bzerkap - 10-16-2017
(10-16-2017, 07:07 AM)kckolbe Wrote:5) Let's look at a couple of things @7hawk77 said in this thread. I am going to bold part of it for emphasis.
Quote:He still has every right to hit FA or do whatever he wants. If he felt the need to honor the deal, he could easily holdout or request a trade or do whatever he wants. That's on him on we wanted to give him that option.
However, the head office felt it very necessary to show that these types of bets are not encouraged and will not be tolerated in the future.
So, per this ruling, a player may make an agreement with another team outside the forums and see it out? So, basically, you personally stated that this activity IS allowed on this site while also stating you are sending a message not to do it?
Additionally, does anyone else feel the HO is simply deflecting this onto me? By Hawk's own words, I can do WHATEVER I WANT regarding this situation, even specifically listing things that would normally be considered unethical.
I'm pretty sure what Hawk was saying here is that they are nullifying the bet, plain and simple. Everything gets reset to zero, because you are not forced by the forum/betting/HO to follow through with it. However, you still can if you wish.
The potentially unethical avenues that he is listing aren't what he is advocating or encouraging, simply listing. They are things people have done before and more than likely will do again. That's really all he is saying here.
The board can only control tampering in so far as they can prove it, which generally is on the forum or proof provided by offending parties. Hawk is just being realistic here, if you know someone IRL it's pretty easy to word of mouth tamper them to your team with no possibility of proof.
Not calling you out here but I just want to hopefully clarify what Hawk was saying, as I saw it. @7hawk77 please let me know if I'm wrong on any of this.
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - Keyg_an - 10-16-2017
(10-15-2017, 11:38 PM)7hawk77 Wrote:It was nullified because we discussed the bet, voted on it and had consensus that it was unhealthy for the league.
I voted that it should be nullified because I think that the bet is unethical and goes against the spirit of competition. Regardless of who won that bet, if adds and subtracts power unfairly to a team. Tampering also unfairly adds and subtracts power to teams.
Obesity is bad, murdering is bad, obesity and murder are equally bad.
Do you realize how silly you sound?
A) Public forums are things like the main NSFL discord channel and the forums. If you're gonna copy a rule book from the SHL at least know what all the rules say.
B) Want to know what else is unhealthy for the league? Punishing a team that people didn't think would win two games over the course of two seasons. It's not healthy to have such a shit fucking team, do you know how hard it is to keep people active when you're losing games 53-0 every fucking week?
C) Head office was fucking promoting the bet before any of this cap non-sense, and now you guys decide that it needs to be nullified. Just doesn't make sense.
D) Where in the world are you seeing people ask for harsher punishment? I've seen no one say this punishment isn't harsh enough, hell everyone is asking for it to not be as harsh. Talk about cherry picking your arguments man.
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - 7hawk77 - 10-16-2017
@Keyg_an
A.) You argued the verbage of tampering when I was arguing the overall effect and meaning of it. After I show you that the verbage still holds up and it is tampering... and even KCKolbe admits that it was tampering, you are arguing that it isn't. You're wrong here. There is nothing more to discuss.
B.) No team is being punished. Your team is just not benefiting unfairly from something you believe you should benefit from. I'm sorry you can't see the difference.
C.) How we're the HO promoting the bet? I asked KCKolbe to do a presser because I thought it would be interesting to see what his thoughts we're. I joined the HO during this season and this bet is older than that. I'd like to see actual proof of the HO promoting this bet.
D.) Do you understand this cap penalty? It's 1 million in penalty. The other 2 million we're effectively "borrowed" from this year. Your team went over by 2 million and has to deal with 3 million next year. If this was any less, cap space would become irrelevant because teams would just be using it as a no cost loan.
I get it, you are pissed because you thought you would get a free cornerback to your team. Sorry you feel that you've been robbed. Guess your team will have to draft, trade and recruit during F.A. just like every other team...
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - 7hawk77 - 10-16-2017
(10-16-2017, 02:14 AM)Symmetrik Wrote:Half this HO wasn't even in power before this season, but people are mad that they're enforcing a rule that should have been, but wasn't, enforced by the previous leaders? Since teams got away with it in S1 we're just supposed to never punish teams for going over the cap? They can't go back and retroactively punish teams for being over the cap 2 seasons ago.
Also I feel like people could benefit by reading this again.
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - Bzerkap - 10-16-2017
(10-16-2017, 12:24 PM)7hawk77 Wrote:Also I feel like people could benefit by reading this again.I just wanna know if my interpretation was right. I need validation. Please give
Las Vegas Legion Cap Hit and KCKolbe Bet - 7hawk77 - 10-16-2017
(10-16-2017, 09:00 AM)Bzerkap Wrote:[quote author=kckolbe date=1508152020]5) Let's look at a couple of things @7hawk77 said in this thread. I am going to bold part of it for emphasis.
Quote:He still has every right to hit FA or do whatever he wants. If he felt the need to honor the deal, he could easily holdout or request a trade or do whatever he wants. That's on him on we wanted to give him that option.
However, the head office felt it very necessary to show that these types of bets are not encouraged and will not be tolerated in the future.
So, per this ruling, a player may make an agreement with another team outside the forums and see it out? So, basically, you personally stated that this activity IS allowed on this site while also stating you are sending a message not to do it?
Additionally, does anyone else feel the HO is simply deflecting this onto me? By Hawk's own words, I can do WHATEVER I WANT regarding this situation, even specifically listing things that would normally be considered unethical.
I'm pretty sure what Hawk was saying here is that they are nullifying the bet, plain and simple. Everything gets reset to zero, because you are not forced by the forum/betting/HO to follow through with it. However, you still can if you wish.
The potentially unethical avenues that he is listing aren't what he is advocating or encouraging, simply listing. They are things people have done before and more than likely will do again. That's really all he is saying here.
The board can only control tampering in so far as they can prove it, which generally is on the forum or proof provided by offending parties. Hawk is just being realistic here, if you know someone IRL it's pretty easy to word of mouth tamper them to your team with no possibility of proof.
Not calling you out here but I just want to hopefully clarify what Hawk was saying, as I saw it. @7hawk77 please let me know if I'm wrong on any of this.[/quote]
Correct.
For example, during S1. Ethan Hunt was traded to the sabercats. He then expressed interest that he did not want to play for this team and wanted to be traded elsewhere. This was not ideal for the sabercats but he was acting on his own and wasn't influenced by an outside force. This isn't breaking the rules.
Now if he expressed this interest because another GM said "hey come play for us" and did it because an outside force was acting upon him in an unfair manner. This isn't ok. The Varga Cushing bet is an outside force, that resulted in kckolbe being forced to leave against his will. He can still do whatever he wants because he has his autonomy back.