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+---- Thread: S25 Expansion (/showthread.php?tid=25196)
RE: S25 Expansion - infinitempg - 08-26-2020
(08-26-2020, 10:28 PM)Tylus Wrote: Just make it a prerequisite that you have to have GM or HO experience for one of the members, waste a lot less of peoples time if you know you're going to only hire people with those credentials anyway. Just a thought. Congrats again to the people who got selected, they were definitely deserving!
(08-26-2020, 11:10 PM)bex Wrote: Head Office is made of individuals who weigh things differently. For some, experience is more heavily weighted. I'm simply saying that not having experience isn't an automatic rule out generally, at least as far as I am concerned.
As bex said - we all weigh things differently. I went into this process and did exactly what people said HO did as a whole - throw out people who did not have any tangible war room and/or GM experience. (quick edit here - I DID read all applications. Even when I was on vacation. Your application didn't just show up and be ignored.) To me, if you haven't shown you can take a team that already exists and GM it effectively, I am not willing to take the risk of giving you a brand new team and watching it burn to the ground. To me (and I want to stress, I am NOT speaking for all of HO), that experience is extremely important. Personally, I don't even have a problem with Tylus' recommendation. However, that is not the end-all-be-all and I can tell you that work done in other departments also catches our eye, some more than others.
But overall, my personal thought process is to get users who will provide the most stability and the most evidence they can lead a team to sustainable success. We've seen at least twice already that a team that comes in with too much drive to "win-now" or have general mismanagement will inevitably crash and burn within a few seasons. The two bids we picked, to me, the most trustworthy picks.
RE: S25 Expansion - iStegosauruz - 08-26-2020
(08-26-2020, 11:10 PM)bex Wrote:(08-26-2020, 10:52 PM)NicholasTheGreat Wrote:(08-26-2020, 10:44 PM)bex Wrote:(08-26-2020, 10:13 PM)NicholasTheGreat Wrote:(08-26-2020, 05:49 PM)infinitempg Wrote: I feel you there, and there certainly seem to be pros to picking either experienced or new GMs (I can't claim to know how HO makes these decisions). The fact is that this is typically how expansions seem to go. Between adamS and oles in S16 and dwyer/raven and raindelay/frost in S22, the expansion GMs tend to be long-time league vets with GM and/or HO experience. I think Sarasota is the only team of the four with no prior ISFL GM experience, and both of them had been DSFL GMs.
anyway, congrats all!
Yup, basically this. We want to make sure the expansion teams have as strong a base to start on as possible - they’re brand new teams and don’t have the foundation that currently existing teams already have. I fully encourage users with less experience with management to join their teams war rooms or apply to be their GMs, because there is more support in already existing teams to ensure success.
The pool this time around was pretty good and if we had to go to 4 I think we’d have 4 really good pairings. We had to narrow down to 2 and trust me, that was a difficult decision for HO.
If this is the case, why bother actually having applicants when 90% of them will never be considered? You may produce the best bid ever but because you don't have the experience, you go straight in the trash pile.
Experience can be a differentiating factor and often is, but it's not the end all be all. Of our top six teams 2 of those featured individuals without GM or HO experience. All applications are looked at, even those without traditional experience. I also think that expansion applications are a great way to get on HO's radar for future opportunities, even if they do not result in getting a team.
On the radar for what? Head Office? Oh wait, there was no public job posting.
4 seasons time when there is another expansion? Oh wait, they still might not have the GM experience.
If what you say is the case, maybe tell it to other members of HO who say the opposite.
Head Office is made of individuals who weigh things differently. For some, experience is more heavily weighted. I'm simply saying that not having experience isn't an automatic rule out generally, at least as far as I am concerned.
HO advertised for intern applications before the season began. The listing was posted publicly on the forums. As always, if someone is interested in Head Office, I'd encourage them to reach out to us. We're always looking to put people on our consideration list, regardless if we're actively taking applications or not.
On the radar for a great many things. HO or GM openings sure, other work that comes up, etc. We talk to a lot of people in a lot of areas in the league and can make recommendations as we get to know people and the skills and talents they bring to the league.
So I'm going to chime in here and give some context around my own experiences with expansion because I think they have some relevancy here. In my personal opinion HO has to pick the best applicants. We can parse what we think "best" means, but really what they're looking for are the ones they think are safest to entrust a new franchise to. Not the ones who will build a winner the quickest, but the ones who will build a sustained product (i.e. won't just become a laughingstock) and will foster a good locker room presence. They have an obligation to pick the candidates that they think strike a good balance and minimize the risk of crashing and burning.
I've applied both of the last expansion cycles. In the first - the one where we got Honolulu and Sarasota - I applied before completing my first season in the league and without any experience in a war room. My partner in that was Exilizer, who also did not have any experience. We decided that we thought we could put together a compelling application if HO was willing to consider new people to the league but recognized that it was an uphill battle because we lacked the experience. The application, however, could also serve as a way for us to interact with HO and showcase to the league that we were interested in becoming more invested.
Less than a season later I was Co-GM in Dallas and Exilizer was HO. In a way, we accomplished our goal.
This cycle I went into the process with more experience and with a Co-GM who also possessed experience not just as a GM but specifically with as a GM with me - Kyle. To be transparent from what I've been told we were the last pairing to be eliminated this process - meaning Dewalt/High and woelkers/bwest were chosen directly over us at the last step of the process. Although I definitely am biased and think we deserved a team, I can respect the choices. They picked candidates who had experience building a locker room presence - safe candidates who will build strong locker rooms and eventually produce winners without ever being laughingstocks.
Now, this DOES NOT mean that new players or candidates with no experience CANNOT do this. It means that there are generally safer options than those. That being said, the moral to take from this is expressing interest in this way is a good first step to getting further involved in the league. Being rejected is a crossroads - you can either appreciate the experience, realize you got a chance to get your name out there, and build off of it or you can fault decision makers for making one of the hardest choices a HO has to make and picking candidates who are safe and have few - if any - flaws.
Again, I say this full well knowing that my application was the last of the groups cut. I have more reasons to be salty than almost anyone here.
Addition after rereading: I do think HO should be more clear with their decision making - as in what they all weigh - but I reject the premise that its useless to apply if you don't have experience. You have to go into it with the right mindset and pull value from it even if it is an uphill battle.
RE: S25 Expansion - SwankyPants31 - 08-27-2020
Going to echo what infinite/JPach/Steg have already expressed here a bit. Full disclosure, I didn't submit a bid of my own, but as Steg said, submitting a bid is a great way to get a foot in the door. Yeah, you're likely not going to be a first choice if you don't have prior GM experience. Building a franchise from the ground up is extremely difficult, and as infinite stated the process is more about who can be TRUSTED to do it, rather than who has the best or flashiest concept in mind. You shouldn't expect to come into the league and be given the keys to a whole new franchise in your first couple months. And if you worked hard, had a good bid and didn't get it? You can bet they noticed and you aren't flying under the radar.
Beyond that I think it's very telling how people react when they don't get their way. When the league eventually expands again and people who weren't selected re-submit, I wouldn't be surprised if HO revisits this thread as part of their evaluations.
RE: S25 Expansion - infinitempg - 08-27-2020
(08-27-2020, 12:03 AM)SwankyPants31 Wrote: Beyond that I think it's very telling how people react when they don't get their way. When the league eventually expands again and people who weren't selected re-submit, I wouldn't be surprised if HO revisits this thread as part of their evaluations.
RE: S25 Expansion - Kyamprac - 08-27-2020
(08-27-2020, 12:08 AM)infinitempg Wrote:(08-27-2020, 12:03 AM)SwankyPants31 Wrote: Beyond that I think it's very telling how people react when they don't get their way. When the league eventually expands again and people who weren't selected re-submit, I wouldn't be surprised if HO revisits this thread as part of their evaluations.
I told myself I wasn't going to post again to fuel this fire, but this is a cheap shot. If this comment is directed at me, I feel like I should point out I did not apply for expansion.. nor did I have any intent to do so. I just happen to know of several very good applications that went forward from people, some of which have the proven GM and ISFL War Room experience everyone is touting here as being so important. Kyle and Steg's application is a great example of this. While I like to see some fresh blood move up in the league and think it's important, I don't disagree that taking on an expansion team is a difficult task that requires some experience.
My issue was primarily with giving a new team to an already existing/active GM and one that recently just left their team as GM over one of the other qualified applicants.
RE: S25 Expansion - infinitempg - 08-27-2020
(08-27-2020, 12:13 AM)Kyamprac Wrote:(08-27-2020, 12:08 AM)infinitempg Wrote:(08-27-2020, 12:03 AM)SwankyPants31 Wrote: Beyond that I think it's very telling how people react when they don't get their way. When the league eventually expands again and people who weren't selected re-submit, I wouldn't be surprised if HO revisits this thread as part of their evaluations.
I told myself I wasn't going to post again to fuel this fire, but this is a cheap shot. If this comment is directed at me, I feel like I should point out I did not apply for expansion.. nor did I have any intent to do so. I just happen to know of several very good applications that went forward from people, some of which have the proven GM and ISFL War Room experience everyone is touting here as being so important. Kyle and Steg's application is a great example of this. While I like to see some fresh blood move up in the league and think it's important, I don't disagree that taking on an expansion team is a difficult task that requires some experience.
My issue was primarily with giving a new team to an already existing/active GM and one that recently just left their team as GM over one of the other qualified applicants.
Oh it’s not aimed at you. You were very respectful and raised good points. Others have been less civil, and if you look at my resignation post that has been the one thing that has pushed me away from this league.
RE: S25 Expansion - speculadora - 08-27-2020
I spent like 12 seasons as a GM and I just have to say I fundamentally disagree with this idea that GMing is some incredible burden that only those select few who've been through it before could possibly understand and therefore be fit for. I'm not sure how many people were hired to GM teams during my tenure, but what I do know is a lot of them hired people who had never been GMs before and nobody batted an eye. There is no secret formula to success, and most of the skill set isn't really demonstrable. If you hire people who are dedicated to their team and are willing and able to put in the effort to scout, sim, whatever, you're going to find successful GMs. I think that they've been found either way here, but if lack of experience is a barrier to entry here there's absolutely no reason it should be
RE: S25 Expansion - AdamS - 08-27-2020
Well at least now you have experience with the "you were my 2nd choice" of free agency
RE: S25 Expansion - infinitempg - 08-27-2020
(08-27-2020, 12:23 AM)speculadora Wrote: I spent like 12 seasons as a GM and I just have to say I fundamentally disagree with this idea that GMing is some incredible burden that only those select few who've been through it before could possibly understand and therefore be fit for. I'm not sure how many people were hired to GM teams during my tenure, but what I do know is a lot of them hired people who had never been GMs before and nobody batted an eye. There is no secret formula to success, and most of the skill set isn't really demonstrable. If you hire people who are dedicated to their team and are willing and able to put in the effort to scout, sim, whatever, you're going to find successful GMs. I think that they've been found either way here, but if lack of experience is a barrier to entry here there's absolutely no reason it should be
I actually agree with you here - after all I was hired as Co-GM of the Yeti with only a season or two of war room experience. Granted at the time it was because our team had no other actives but uh it’s still true. I think there is an extra level of difficulty with an expansion team though - and as such I’m more inclined to want to give teams to the most experienced and trustworthy users.
RE: S25 Expansion - Bauer - 08-27-2020
I'm obligated to say heck HO, also nobody likes me. I love you @woelkers
Oh also @bex is cute but you all already knew that. Heck you if you hurt her feelings.