*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams?

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - Printable Version

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*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - Kendrick - 05-13-2018

(05-13-2018, 12:09 AM)manicmav36 Wrote:5% seems reasonable, to be honest. I'm under the impression that people looking to quit over a lack of carry over are looking for more than that, however.

Nope, that's what I had in mind as well. I was going to say the most you give is 7% and you only get that if you retire at the end of 7-8 seasons in the league.

Are you in any other leagues? The carryover is never really something like 10% or higher in any of the ones I'm in.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - manicmav36 - 05-13-2018

(05-13-2018, 02:48 PM)Kendrick Wrote:Nope, that's what I had in mind as well. I was going to say the most you give is 7% and you only get that if you retire at the end of 7-8 seasons in the league.

Are you in any other leagues? The carryover is never really something like 10% or higher in any of the ones I'm in.

I'm also in PBE, which I don't believe allows any carryover for recreates. Couldn't find anything in the rule book.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - majesiu - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 05:51 AM)manicmav36 Wrote:I'm also in PBE, which I don't believe allows any carryover for recreates. Couldn't find anything in the rule book.

You are correct.

As for carryover hugely against, even if it's minimal amount giving advantages to recreates would just result in less new players coming. Look at it this way: if newbie created S7 player and then veteran recreates in S8, considering his knowledge he got in first go around + carryover he might be better player already after the draft with more regression free years. Not exactly welcoming scenery for new players.

I wondered which leagues to join after PBE (finally chosen NSFL and SHL) and even though I love basketball I passed on SBA also because of carryover.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - AdamS - 05-14-2018

I've seen a ton of complaints about carryover TPE giving an advantage that new players would quit over. My first problem with this is remembering being a new player and not knowing what any of that meant. Certainly not enough to have that kind of reaction to it. My second problem is that I've never seen anyone complain about carryover bank account money and that's a significantly larger advantage.

I've got this inkling that the reasons I'm being given for the anti-carryover stance aren't the real reasons, or at least not the whole picture. I'm also not partial to any argument that revolves around one person speaking for a group of unnamed hypothetical individuals.

So what argument am I missing here?

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - Kendrick - 05-14-2018

I'll put those all down as inexperienced sim leaguers. Carryover is actually not as bad as you guys all paint it to be. I'm the recruitment leader in the VHL (the longest current running player sim league) and I can tell you no new guy has expressed his concern with carryover that we provide our older members since...well the first 10 seasons of the league (now close to 60 seasons old).

You guys can disagree all you want, I'm telling you first hand it doesn't distraught new members.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - majesiu - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 08:22 AM)Kendrick Wrote:You guys can disagree all you want, I'm telling you first hand it doesn't distraught new members.

Yeah because every shade of a doubt and reason someone doesn't join the sim league goes directly to the recruitment director. If I were to join VHL I'll let you know that I'm not fan of carryover Smile

As for bank account is not a big deal, because new guys have opportunity to earn that money and trainings/equipment with it, unlike carryover TPE, which they can't get at all on their first gens. There are articles about TPE, players might wonder why they don't perform as their recreate counterpart, many ways to realise the unfairness and get demotivated by it. But as you (AdamS) mentioned it's very likely that it will pass anyway, so discussing it become kind of pointless. Out of curiosity, what regression season are people deciding about that (I assume HO members?). And I understand the need of motivating old vets to stay, just even when later on new players realize the workings of this mechanic I doubt it will have positive effect on retention.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - AdamS - 05-14-2018

Likely to pass but not a lock at this point yet. There's still discussion to be had.

Several of the longest running and most consistent leagues have it and the players aren't leaving because those new players become the old vets. And the SBA just had a recruitment drive of 50+ players in season 30. If there's evidence that this makes people leave like I keep hearing, by all means, someone bring it forward. just saying it's going to happen over and over doesn't really hold weight when there are clear examples of the opposite.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - 37thchamber - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 08:10 AM)AdamS Wrote:My second problem is that I've never seen anyone complain about carryover bank account money and that's a significantly larger advantage.

Isn't that an argument against carryover TPE, though? If we're saying recreates already have a large advantage through carryover bank money, why would we add to it by allowing carryover TPE as well? If we're gonna make those arguments, I figure that's worth pointing out.

I also don't think the "this is how it's done in existing leagues" argument is particularly solid. Different sports, different requirements for a decent player, different people in many cases etc etc. It's not really the same across leagues. Realistically the only way to know if it will deter users here specifically is to ask them.

I'm not particularly bothered about it because I don't really care about being highest TPE earner or first pick in the draft. It's also similar to systems I'm familiar with, so it's just... normal to me, I guess. But not everyone thinks like me... it's reasonable to think there are people who might have different opinions.

It doesn't matter how good a new user is, they're already going to be starting several steps behind a veteran. Of course, you can make the argument that a veteran has earned that advantage, but then it becomes an argument of how much advantage do we give them?

Let's say the maximum is 50 TPE for example. That means a veteran with a healthy bank account could have an 80-ish TPE advantage over a new user immediately if they buy full equipment. Even without the equipment, a 50 TPE advantage is a full season of AC+training. It's not a lot over the course of a career, I guess (though since you can be a very effective player at 600 TPE, that's about 12% of the required TPE earnings you'd need taken care of already) but at the start of the player's career, it's not a small advantage. And new players will be focused on their early career experience, surely?

As a compromise, I'd offer the carryover, but you claim it later in the player's career (after leaving DSFL maybe?), or in a couple of instalments at the end of their first two seasons, or as a bonus to something else they pick up regularly (like ACs) for example. More work? Yeah. But it reduces the argument that new players are at a disadvantage, while not removing the "thank you" to dedicated veteran members.

Just a thought.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - AdamS - 05-14-2018

I like that. We'd have to nail down exactly when they got it but that's a really great idea.

*Will we need to fold two NSFL teams? - manicmav36 - 05-14-2018

(05-14-2018, 02:10 AM)AdamS Wrote:I've got this inkling that the reasons I'm being given for the anti-carryover stance aren't the real reasons, or at least not the whole picture.

I'm not sure what people have to hide that are against carryover. Personally, it's my argument for the betterment of the league. The carryover of TPE plus bank account is just too much. Hypothetically speaking, if I were to retire and recreate a QB right now, using the 5% carryover (which seems to be the low wnd of what people want) I would carry over 50 TPE, plus be able to buy a full set of 4 pieces of gear. Suddenly, I'm at 282 TPE without even doing an activity check or training. A full 41% more TPE than a first time create. That's a significant advantage.

(05-14-2018, 02:10 AM)AdamS Wrote:I'm also not partial to any argument that revolves around one person speaking for a group of unnamed hypothetical individuals.

I also would like to point out that BOTH sides are currently doing this, and therefore a moot point.