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+--- Thread: Faded's Predictions Punishment (/showthread.php?tid=32900)
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - Memento Mori - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 09:42 AM)Swanty Wrote: @Memento Mori Re points 1, 2 and 4, you mentioned the 128M in your responses, but my post was me explaining my thinking behind the original punishment, before the casino stuff came out last night. I've already said that I support further action for that.I know, but all anyone in the community can reasonably comment on and react to is what HO has done, not what you might do.
As I said, the overwhelming reaction was that the punishment was too lenient before the casino stuff came out.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - AdamS - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 08:38 AM)Punter715 Wrote:(06-19-2021, 01:47 AM)AdamS Wrote: The punishment feels virtually nonexistent.
Remove the TPE that was stolen, a tiny fine made even smaller by existing pay. No job punishment. No time out of any kind.
No accountability for league management.
I've worked hard not to criticize league management these last few months but holy fuck gang.
I'm getting a vasectomy this year. I'm not using my balls and I will nvite HO to borrow them for big decisions.
No accountability for league management? Elaborate on that one please. The kid got removed immediately from HO, a position he's held for a number of seasons now. What else would you have done? Fine all the other HO members for... What? Not catching this sooner?
Yes, people messed up by not removing his permissions. Things fall through the cracks. It happens. It's life.
What would you have done in this situation? Completely nuke Faded from the league as well as dismantle the entire stream and sim teams for their oversight? Shit, might as well blow up the entire PT team and the casino for not catching suspicious behavior sooner, too.
Without spiraling out into people I never mentioned on things I never suggested for whatever purposes you were doing so......you can start with a ban on league jobs for the guilty party for at least some time. Multiple seasons at minimum. Perhaps even a league ban for a short time, like a season. Like you'd do with say...a totally inactive multi user who didn't even cross over his players. If they can muster a 1 season ban and job restrictions for someone who isn't even here, surely they can do such for someone who literally cheated for TPE.
Beyond actually being a member of upper management it actually should have constituted more because the level of expectation and responsibility is higher. That's the price of power. The league has had ZERO problem handing out job restrictions and site bans of varying length for a wide variety of offenses. INCLUDING the rule break most closely aligned with this one.
There was absolutely no reason to not follow suit here. None. Especially given the incredibly meager removal of only the ill gotten TPE and the basically non existent fine. That would be a loss of TPE that is only 6 more than what a player lost on a contract technicality not long ago and a fine so small that the half of the season's job pay he was allowed to keep nearly pays for it.
This was an absolutely terrible punishment after one of the biggest infractions in league history. Every punishment is a precedent to what comes next in addition to being the result of the actions of the guilty. Double when its someone that high up in the power structure. If people who are NOT in power are getting hit with all manner of punishments and an HO member isn't...that's a problem. One of several problems depending, and none of them good.
So yes....this was a case of a lack of accountability for league management. A firing and having to give back the stolen TPE is a starting line. Not a punishment.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - Z-Whiz - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 04:59 AM)Swanty Wrote: You could argue that the extra 15-20 TPE or so helped his team
We are way beyond that now. It was 44 TPE, plus the $120m of illegally gotten cash that was then used for weekly trainings and equipment. I haven't checked all his purchases cuz honestly, I doubt his punishment will change. However if these bets really do go back season and seasons, we could easily be talking about 100+ TPE when you factor in all the training and equipment that he wouldn't have been able to afford without cheat. That is a massive amount. His player should not be able to be on the field because he cheated to get where he is.
It shouldn't matter if it's his first offense when it's cheating of this magnitude. If I flirt with another women one time, my wife probably forgives me. If I go around having affairs in every state in America for 3 years, so probably doesn't forgive me. There should be zero tolerance for an offense of this size. It should be a ban and his player should be removed from the game.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - shadyshoelace - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 04:59 AM)Swanty Wrote: We will try to point to other cases to justify why a certain level of punishment is appropriate, but we won't hesitate to deviate from it if there are differences in the exact nature of the case, which there almost always is.
Hi Swanty, I appreciate you taking the time to respond to people's concerns in-depth, even if I still find most of the answers frustrating. Since you've mentioned it, could you point to the differences in the exact nature of the Noble case and this case that led to such drastically different outcomes? To me, they look virtually identical save for the amount of TPE cheated. At the very least, can you explain why HO felt that the Kendrick and TB punishments were more relevant precedent to cite, despite those both being very, very different instances of cheating by users not abusing any league power and gaining much less TPE (not to mention the fact that they received 2x TPE fines and faded did not)?
Best I can tell, the Noble punishment cited here was his first offense in the NSFL not second as you previously claimed, as it's the third punishment in the punishment forum, neither of the previous two implicate Noble, and the thread refers to his checkered past in other leagues but has no mention of any past issues in this league.
Furthermore, as Z-Whiz has mentioned above, I have a hard time buying 10+ instances of cheating spanning several seasons as a "first offense" - just the first time he's been caught after many offenses. Those are not the same thing.
Edit: for further precedent for TPE manipulation punishments that garnered both a loss of credit for the given task and 2x TPE fines (functionally 3x the loss faded received proportionally), I'll handily link for you two additional punishments similar to Kendrick's for PT plagiarism.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - Duilio05 - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 10:46 AM)Z-Whiz Wrote:(06-19-2021, 04:59 AM)Swanty Wrote: You could argue that the extra 15-20 TPE or so helped his team
We are way beyond that now. It was 44 TPE, plus the $120m of illegally gotten cash that was then used for weekly trainings and equipment. I haven't checked all his purchases cuz honestly, I doubt his punishment will change. However if these bets really do go back season and seasons, we could easily be talking about 100+ TPE when you factor in all the training and equipment that he wouldn't have been able to afford without cheat. That is a massive amount. His player should not be able to be on the field because he cheated to get where he is.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - SwankyPants31 - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 08:53 AM)Memento Mori Wrote: This is mindboggling to me. Cheating is always malicious. Everyone loses when they play with or against a cheat. It cheapens the game for all those involved. Faded's teammates were among those advocating for a bigger punishment, as was someone who (I think?) gets on really well with him. As you know, in punishments where there are any shades of grey, people usually jump to the defence of their friends/teammates. Given how heavy-handed one famous recent punishment was, this looks incredibly tame and as others have pointed out, the precedent in cheating cases has been a larger punishment. Plus as you mention later, he did cheat another user out of their money.
Completely agree with this. It's not like Faded did something wrong without knowing what he was doing was wrong, he intentionally abused his power to gain an advantage. That's malicious no matter how you look at it.
Quote:Honestly, I think Faded retiring his player kinda bailed you out here, as the only further punishment left is a site suspension to delay him coming back and recreating (if he even wants to) or issuing him a further fine/job restrictions to put him at more of a disadvantage if he does come back. Him apologising/criticising himself (rightly) garnered some sympathy and stopped the reaction becoming more vitriolic.
Want to briefly address this as well, especially his "apology". I'd like to point out that even in that apology he never came clean regarding taking advantage of the casino. That was something that was discovered independently after the fact. To double down on the point about how cheating is malicious from earlier, he had every opportunity to at least self report the casino money after seeing that the punishment was just for TPE, and he intentionally chose not to. To me, that extinguishes any goodwill he might have had left.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - Memento Mori - 06-19-2021
(06-19-2021, 02:36 PM)SwankyPants31 Wrote:That's a really good point, I missed that and haven't seen anyone else bring it up.Quote:Honestly, I think Faded retiring his player kinda bailed you out here, as the only further punishment left is a site suspension to delay him coming back and recreating (if he even wants to) or issuing him a further fine/job restrictions to put him at more of a disadvantage if he does come back. Him apologising/criticising himself (rightly) garnered some sympathy and stopped the reaction becoming more vitriolic.
Want to briefly address this as well, especially his "apology". I'd like to point out that even in that apology he never came clean regarding taking advantage of the casino. That was something that was discovered independently after the fact. To double down on the point about how cheating is malicious from earlier, he had every opportunity to at least self report the casino money after seeing that the punishment was just for TPE, and he intentionally chose not to. To me, that extinguishes any goodwill he might have had left.
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - 37thchamber - 06-19-2021
critical race theory strikes again smh my head
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - infinitempg - 06-19-2021
god i don't miss being the "respond to upset folks in punishment threads" person
RE: Faded's Predictions Punishment - infinitempg - 06-19-2021
(06-18-2021, 09:54 PM)hexify Wrote: Since he was using the ISFL channel to watch the videos, you guys should check the watching history of the channel. If it shows the uploaded videos, thats even more damning evidence.
Two factors here:
1. In order to watch the video before it goes "public", you have to log in to the YouTube Studio, open up the uploaded video, and then view the game that way. So the watching history would not be helpful (outside of laughing at whatever stuff people who actually log in watch before remembering to log out).
2. YouTube Studio does not log whoever logs in to the league channel nor does it log what they do on it, so we wouldn't be able to audit that and see if anyone accessed it.