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+---- Thread: The NSFL Media Problem (/showthread.php?tid=23473)
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The NSFL Media Problem - Starboy - 07-10-2020
As a...somewhat older member of the league, I have seen the league go from only have drafts with about 8 active players to a whopping 30 in the matter of a few seasons. I have noticed in that time a very glaring issue with the league and this section of the forum as a whole. Note that this isn’t an attack on anyone because I love reading everything here but just an observation I have seen with the league as a whole and want to provide my take along with creating a discussion, if anyone reads this.
That brings me to the point I want to make where a lot of media is not exactly “media” in the sense that most probably would say. There are one too many stories here or there about things that have little to nothing to do with the league or football at all. It does not provide any sort of special benefit to players wanting to read about the league or new perspectives when the only things within media are your garden variety stories about how somebody during their Christmas got a brand new Blastoise card or that a group of players go out for Waffle House after a game despite being on opposite teams and no team being in the state of Georgia.
That issue gets multiplied tenfold during certain events and during the run of a season because of two major things where I do not believe one of those should go away. One of those things obviously is boosted media payouts that allow those Christmas toy stories that are not about football to persist in long winded posts. That or the long winded posts about how someone made a bad bet in order to pay off said bet when the league content in the media is minimal. The other issue is that the only media being read and discussed is the old S1 users that everyone knows about. People will avoid reading statistical or actual media articles because they don’t see a name they recognize that wrote it. That might just be a me issue for being...me, but it’s something I notice a lot with any half baked drama being kicked around.
Then once you recognize those issues, a lot of people probably ask, well how do you fix it? There are probably hundreds of ways to actually fix the issues in media but let me offer up something that could keep everyone happy. Adding another section in media/forum for personal stories that pay out at a fraction of regular media. What would the definition of “regular media” be? Something that can be read by a group of graders, the media grading team, and a majority of the team can see that the media is league related and required effort in order to get typed up. Things like game summaries, statistical analysis, history of teams or players that talks about their stats or games, sim analysis, and media of that nature would still be considered and graded out like regular media and would keep bonus days from seeming like “personal story time.” Those stories have their place but perhaps in another area where like-minded media can fit together.
Not sure how many will read this, but just wanted to create some discussion about the NSFL Media and how it should or if it should be changed.
The NSFL Media Problem - Buttersqauch101 - 07-10-2020
Clown ????
The NSFL Media Problem - IsaStarcrossed - 07-10-2020
I like this as an idea and it would be a way for people to have a bit more freedom and creativity with their players and their writing.
Then again, I am a strong supporter of very specific rules and anything that helps move us in that direction has my attention. I don't like when thing are left up to interpretation. Anything that can allow room for bias or leave someone feel like there was an opportunity for them to be the object of bias is a huge negative for me. I'd love to see the league start moving towards more specific guidelines.
The NSFL Media Problem - 37thchamber - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 10:31 PM)Jackets28 Wrote:Adding another section in media/forum for personal stories that pay out at a fraction of regular media. What would the definition of “regular media” be? Something that can be read by a group of graders, the media grading team, and a majority of the team can see that the media is league related and required effort in order to get typed up. Things like game summaries, statistical analysis, history of teams or players that talks about their stats or games, sim analysis, and media of that nature would still be considered and graded out like regular media and would keep bonus days from seeming like “personal story time.” Those stories have their place but perhaps in another area where like-minded media can fit together.
I hate this idea.
The majority of my media since I joined has been character driven. That's literally the reason I joined this league in the first place. It's a big factor in why I originally built the wiki (and you'll notice, the requirements for the wiki PT still steer people in that direction).
The fact that sim leagues are basically sports D&D with extra steps is probably one of the major factors in why a lot of people are here, in fact. "Personal story time" as you put it, is a major part of how you personalise your experience. And you're saying we should effectively penalise people who write about the setting and characters in it? Hell no.
If you're suggesting there should be some kind of overarching rubric for written media in general to avoid people putting out silly media pieces... I can understand the idea... I just don't see how you implement one fairly.
Where do you draw the line? I'm not seeing any reason why this wouldn't fall under your "personal story time" category. There's basically no mention of actual game stats etc and it's not really about the league as a whole. It's about two characters, chiefly, with little to no consideration given to their sim performances (because one is long retired and the other hasn't even been created yet).
What about this or this? Both are clearly written tongue-in-cheek and don't really talk about the league itself. Again, the focus is on specific characters, with no real relevance to their performances in the sim.
This is before I even talk about the wiki. Which is mostly character specific writing. How much of that is "regular articles" and how much is "personal story time" ..? How do we apportion the payouts in that case? Currently, non PT wiki writing pays out at written media rate plus a bonus. But based on what you're saying here, a lot of it should be paid out at a fraction of that.
I don't think you can fairly arbitrate with fixed rules how a media piece should be paid out. It's always going to be up to the grader to determine that (as it is with graphics). The best you can do is provide some sort of rubric that touches on the main points expected. Even then, tbh, you'll need to be a lot more expansive than "game summaries, statistical analysis, history of teams or players that talks about their stats or games, sim analysis, and media of that nature" -- because this list, as illustrated above, would exclude plenty of perfectly valid media from a fair payout.
As a general rule, I think if you're implementing rules like you propose, you cannot structure them in a way that effectively limits user freedom. If I can't make as much cash writing about characters (as I prefer to), I'm just as likely to not write at all as I am to write about the sim results or whatever. Surely that's not conducive to user retention, which presumably, is the goal of the league.
The NSFL Media Problem - Starboy - 07-10-2020
(07-10-2020, 06:14 PM)37thchamber Wrote:I hate this idea.
As a general rule, I think if you're implementing rules like you propose, you cannot structure them in a way that effectively limits user freedom. If I can't make as much cash writing about characters (as I prefer to), I'm just as likely to not write at all as I am to write about the sim results or whatever. Surely that's not conducive to user retention, which presumably, is the goal of the league.
As I put in my article, I mention that there could be a special place for that type of media and more stat driven articles to remain in the standard place for NSFL Media. Even then both would get paid, as I stated, as to still give those that want to write to their heart’s content about their player but not on the same pay scale as those that are using analysis in order to form a media article.
Another thing you mention is the wikis which I never said should be touched so I won’t really even bring that up since that debate has nothing to do with anything I mentioned. I love the wikis and fully support the creativity that goes into them the same way I appreciate the back stories to the characters in the league. It just should have its own place and a different grading and payout since articles like that are not as difficult to pump out as something that requires research. Users are allowed to write whatever they want when they want and I fully support that.
The NSFL Media Problem - nunccoepi - 07-10-2020
I actually don't mind this idea. Although I think I disagree with your comments about people ignoring the stat analysis of the newer guys...guys like Issa, Steg, TVC, Syl, and now Mag are all still relatively new (in comparison to the S1 guys) and are doing amazing things with the sim. That being said, I'll admit that I don't read a lot of media. I do enough reading in my own personal life these days.
But to address @37thchamber's point about limiting user freedom, I wonder if a better option would be to increase the payout of stat analysis and other content more relevant to the league rather than decrease the payout of player "stories".
But honestly I think the better solution would be to have media graders be a little more strict with what you'll get paid for. If only 10% of your writing is even remotely related to the league, then maybe you shouldn't be getting paid 100%. So allow graders to use a little more deference in reducing pay in those instances. I'm not saying to make them actual graders like graphics has done because I've been against the grading system there since it was implemented. But ensuring at least topic content seems reasonable.
The NSFL Media Problem - DarknessRising - 07-11-2020
Quote: Although I think I disagree with your comments about people ignoring the stat analysis of the newer guys...guys like Issa, Steg, TVC, Syl, and now Mag are all still relatively new (in comparison to the S1 guys) and are doing amazing things with the sim.
Personally, i find that this is true. Whilst those you listed are not S1, they are big names that are recognisable and known throughout the leg, and thus turn heads when they publish an article. The S1 people are in the same boat, they are names that are more recognisable and known throughout the league since they do tend to be in higher positions or generally talked about more.. Is this something we can really fix though? Not really, it's something that is just inherently going exist when you have people known for their analysis and then others who aren't really known at all by name.
The NSFL Media Problem - Attopax - 07-11-2020
@37thchamber is right. By creating players with player names, saying what school they went to, drafting them, etc. we turn this into somewhat of a RPG game.
I think that we should be mindful of the title of the forum section. It is "NSFL Media," not "League Data" or "NSFL Sim Analysis." We should welcome people to take a creative approach to their characters vs. raw data analysis. After all, we have players such as myself and Amidships who are "brothers" in game, as is the same with flyeaglesfly and Rradum with Monty and Colby Jack. Are we saying that doing that is meaningless from a league lore/culture standpoint? Are we saying the only result of that is I could add a few extra words of flavor text to a media post about comparing our in-game stats? That seems really... boring.
That being said, you are probably onto something that we should provide more guidance and boundaries given some of the nonsense I have seen posted. There is a big difference between a post by me exploring what is going through a Asher Montain's mind after an unexpected trade vs. a post giving a play-by-play analysis of Asher's first game playing as himself in Madden NSFL 2039 or whatever. Just like an RPG game, things exploring a player's background, personality, psyche, flaws, strengths, or reactions to the happenings in the league should be encouraged. Statistical analysis and sim mechanics analysis is great, but if we are going to strip our players down to nothing more than an Identification Tool to examine our stats, than why are we all bothering playing in this community? Everyone can just grab a copy of the game and sim to their hearts content -- watch those stats rocket up!
We all know that sports media has no qualms about reporting on the happenings in a player's personal life, opinions, etc., so I think should steer away from penalizing or cheapening mediia posts about non-game things, but I do think that we all would agree that we would not expect to see an ESPN.com article on Tom Brady's Beef Wellington recipe.
I think that is where we should focus our attention when it comes to amending how media is graded/paid.
The NSFL Media Problem - 37thchamber - 07-11-2020
(07-11-2020, 03:10 AM)Jackets28 Wrote:It just should have its own place and a different grading and payout since articles like that are not as difficult to pump out as something that requires research.Arguable. And tbh kind of offensive, since you're cheapening the creative work of plenty of people. Myself included.
I've literally spent hours researching things to write a more realistic, compelling character. But because there are no tangible numbers, you assume it's "easier"? Even if I didn't research, the idea that research is inherently harder than creativity is a slap in the face of any fiction writer on the planet.
(07-11-2020, 03:10 AM)Jackets28 Wrote:Users are allowed to write whatever they want when they want and I fully support that.Then why are you suggesting discouraging it by reducing the payout for some types of media? Or implying that some forms of media shouldn't be paid out?
(07-11-2020, 03:10 AM)Jackets28 Wrote:Even then both would get paid, as I statedI never claimed otherwise. My argument is that you are cheapening some forms of media unfairly.
(07-11-2020, 03:10 AM)Jackets28 Wrote:Another thing you mention is the wikis which I never said should be touched so I won’t really even bring that up since that debate has nothing to do with anything I mentioned.But it does. We currently pay out *more* for wiki articles than media posts... wiki articles which include character narratives. So if your proposal were to be implemented, it would be directly at odds with the current wiki payout structure. How is that reconciled? The wiki and the media section are inexorably intertwined.
Like I said, I'm not opposed to the idea of an overarching rubric... I just don't see how you can come up with one that's fair and unbiased. Any system in a role-playing game (and let's be real, this is an RPG) that penalises creativity/expression is a bad one.
The NSFL Media Problem - Raven - 07-11-2020
Honestly as someone who has been in sim leagues for 5 years now I think media writings about a users player and how they go about their day to day life are kinda a part of the soul of the experience. As been mentioned, for some people role playing is a big part when it comes to their player and while the statistical articles are fantasy and I applaud all the work people put into those kind of articles. I don't see why we have an issue with articles that are about a player who is a part of the league, but isnt related to the numbers of the sim.
Jiggly for example has always been someone who made entire stories behind their players, which hey not always related to howmany touch downs Jenkins scored that week for instance, but were still related to the player. Should that be seen as a lesser article than little timmy who writes about how his player scored 2 touchdowns that week? I dont think so.