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+---- Thread: *The TE position has a problem (/showthread.php?tid=3258)
*The TE position has a problem - 124715 - 08-11-2017
TE is a notoriously difficult position to play, as it forces users to split their TPE between blocking and receiving attributes. It doesn't always pay off magnificently either, as no TE broke 500 receiving yards last year, and 3 touchdowns was good for best of the group.
However, some of this may be because the TE archetypes are seriously messed up, especially in the speed attribute, which is far too low for every single archetype. Let's take a look.
Part I: Background
Blocking Archetype
(MAX: 70) - Speed: 45
Needless to say, this is really low. Obviously, with a blocking TE, speed is less of a concern, but even blocking TEs still do need to catch passes. George Wright Jr, a blocking TE, had 51 receptions. Also, speed has an underrated impact on blocking (god attribute, remember?), and 70 speed is really slow.
It's worth noting that until recently, DTs were allowed to reach 75 speed. Defensive Tackles. Big, hulking, fat, strong, defensive tackles were allowed to get faster than a position archetype who's job description contains route running. It's also worth noting that one archetype of OL, Athletic Lineman, has a cap of 75 speed. Offensive Line and Defensive Tackle are the slowest positions on the field, and when they can get faster than a receiving player, we know something's wrong here.
Balanced and Possession archetypes
(MAX: 75) - Speed: 50
This is worse. I can see speed being an attribute with little importance for the blocking archetype, but Possession? Possession TEs are primarily receivers! 75 speed is incredibly slow, easily coverable by any LB or DB.
Vertical Threat Archetype
(MAX: 80) - Speed: 55
I'm not completely sure what to say here. The fastest of all TE archetypes, a Vertical Threat, caps at 80. Some Offensive Lineman cap at 75 speed. When someone says vertical threat, I picture a player racing down the field, shedding defenders, to reel in the ball far downfield. I don't picture a player that has trouble outrunning an Offensive Lineman.
I think that we can safely say that, on the surface, all these TE archetypes appear to have speed caps that are too slow.
It gets worse. :ph34r:
Part II: Peers
Let's take a look at how the other offensive players stack up in speed.
Offensive Line
Highest max speed: 75 (Athletic)
Average max speed: 68.8
These are some pretty high speed caps for a player with little need for it...
Quarterback
Highest max speed: 90 (Mobile)
Average max speed: 76.3
It makes sense that the Mobile archetype would have a higher speed than the other archetypes, but 90 is seriously fast. It doesn't really make sense that a QB, who's primary role is to throw, should be faster than a receiver, who's primary role is to catch.
Running Back
Highest max speed: 100 (Speed)
Average max speed: 91.3
If a speed RB caps out at 100, why should a speed TE (Vertical Threat) cap out at 80? If a receiving RB caps out at 90, why should a receiving TE (Possession) cap out at 75? If a strength-based RB (Power) caps out at 85, why should a strength-based TE (Blocking) cap out at 70? RBs need to be fast, but so do TEs!
Wide Receiver
Highest max speed: 100 (Speed)
Average max speed: 92.5
The speed WR has 100 as it's cap, but the TE caps at 80? Hell, even the possession receiver is lightning quick: 90 speed. The possession TE is a full 15 points lower. This is not right.
As you've seen, TEs are fully overshadowed by their (unfairly!) faster offensive counterparts. It doesn't make sense that the difference is that stark (TEs frequently lack 20 points in speed from their WR or RB counterparts, with corresponding archetypes) as some NFL TEs can fly.
Tight End(for comparison)
Highest max speed: 80 (Vertical Threat)
Average max speed: 75
The TE numbers, even the average, are below that of a quarterback, who do not need to be particularly fast. In fact, they're on par with that of the OL, which is appalling. This needs to change.
It gets worse. :ph34r:
Part III: Competition
The TE speed caps are far too low for another reason: who they have to go up against.
Linebackers
Highest max speed: 90
Average max speed: 83.8
As the typical offensive system changes, with passing becoming the centerpiece rather than running, Linebackers have found their role changing as well, especially in a 4-3. Regardless of base package, the fact remains that LBs frequently find themselves in coverage, especially against TEs. And, by looking at the speed caps for LBs, the TEs will lose every time. A Tight End with speed 75 can't match up against a linebacker with 85, let alone 90. You'd expect to see the Coverage LB archetype in coverage the most, so let's take a detailed look at that archetype, against the most receiving-oriented archetype, Vertical Threat.
What I've done here is compare the relevant attributes of the Coverage LB and the Vertical Threat (VT) TE. How to read this chart: (MAX: VTTE's max | Cov LB's max) - Attribute: VTTE starting | CovLB starting
(MAX: 80 | 80) - Strength: 40 | 50
(MAX: 85 | 95) - Agility: 50 | 65
(MAX: 75 | 90) - Intelligence: 45 | 55
(MAX: 80 | 85) - Speed: 55 | 65
(MAX: 80 | 60) - Hands: 55 | 35
As you can see, the LB is the winner in every category except hands, and even there, the gap is far too small. We need to change something to give the TEs at least some advantage. Right now, it's just not fair.
In addition, what makes a TE such a formidable threat - size - is negated against LBs, whose height ranges are comparable to those of TEs.
Let's move on.
Safety
Highest max speed: 95
Average max speed: 91.3
On the defense, safeties are asked to do it all. They will defend against the pass, stop the run, and even occasionally rush the passer. Their versatility, as well as size advantage over CBs, make them good match-ups against TEs.
Looking at the archetypes makes it laughably evident that TEs stand no chance in a matchup against a Safety. Where the slowest S archetype caps speed at 85, the Blocking TE archetype limits it at 70. In fact, not even the fastest TE can outrun the slowest safety! Not to mention, the slowest safety is the Run Support Archetype, which is not likely to be in too much coverage anyways.
The TE speed maxes must be massively increased to let them have a fair, balanced matchup against Safeties, who spend a lot of time in coverage of TEs.
It gets worse :ph34r:
Cornerback
Highest max speed: 100
Average max speed: 93.8
There is really no way a TE can get separation from a CB, except with flawless route running, and even that isn't likely:
Cornerback:
Highest max agility: 100
Average max agility: 95
Tight End:
Highest max agility: 85
Average max agility: 80
In fact, the only way a Tight End could conceivably catch a pass on a good CB is with their height advantage, which isn't even that much. CBs also have incredible hands, and in fact, two cornerback archetypes have greater or equal hands to the Vertical Threat TE! This makes no sense whatsoever.
Part IV: The Fix
It's obvious that we need to do something about this. Once TEs start hitting max attributes, especially in speed (and Maddox, Wright Jr. and I are getting close), their already low usage in the sim will fall down a cliff as defenders, who simply have a better max, run all over them. We need to at least make this more balanced. Here's what I propose:
Please note that the starting attribute will be raised/lowered by the same amount as the max attribute.
Blocking TE Archetype
Attribute: Old max -> New max
This one's probably the best one so far. I'd add a couple points to speed and hands, and take down agility (real life blocking TEs are built like trucks) to make this archetype similar to a fullback role (which George Wright Jr. is often utilized in) or something similar.
Speed: 70 -> 75
Agility: I was going to lower agility, but after looking at the OL archetypes, some of which have 80+ agility, I've decided to leave it at 75.
Hands: 75 -> 80
Just a small raise in receiving stats.
Possession TE Archetype
The Possession TE Archetype is strangely built, as it showcases high agility rarely found in TEs, at the expense of speed: 75 is the max there. Keep in mind that some OL have 75 speed as a max. Here's what I propose:
Agility: 80 -> 75
Speed: 75 -> 80
Hands: 90 -> 95
Possession TEs should be some of the surest catchers in the league. The agility nerf will balance out the considerable speed increase, but the hands advantage should give TEs the solid hands they should have.
Balanced TE Archetype
Agility: 80 -> 75
Speed: 75 -> 80
Hands: 85 -> 90
This will give the Balanced TE enough speed to compete with some LBs, and have a good matchup against lower TPE safeties.
Vertical Threat Archetype
Where to begin? This archetype is built like a Possession TE rather than a vertical threat.
Agility: 85 -> 80
Strength: 80 -> 75
Hands: 80 -> 85
Speed 80 -> 90
This will make the Vertical Threat TE actually be able to "take the top off" a coverage or defense in general. Their 90 speed makes them able to compete against safeties and CBs who would shut them down otherwise.
However, these are dangerous increases. The speed and agility must be nerfed (perhaps even more than I have here) to compensate.
Part V: Closing Remarks
The TE archetypes are poorly built. It doesn't make sense that the agility for all of them is so high. For example, some WR archetypes max agility at 90. Even the most agile TEs aren't that close to the least agile WRs. I would've lowered the agility more, but there was something restraining me: the OL archetypes, who all have max agility in the 70s. I propose lowering the agility maxes by at least 5, likely 10 for these OL.
In fact, my brief run-through of all the player builds revealed several things that were unsatisfactory. Is it time for a major redo of position archetypes? We now have more info on how players develop, so it's conceivable.
I hope you enjoyed reading this! Comments? Please post below.
Code:
1772 wordsGRADED
*The TE position has a problem - SimmerDownBruhh - 08-11-2017
#TightEndsArePeopleToo
*The TE position has a problem - Blaster - 08-12-2017
No, TE's don't need more speed. Their max on any build should be about 80. 85 is too high imo. I don't think a TE should be running anywhere close to a 90 speed CB.
The hands should increase. 90-95 max, you aren't supposed to be at the same level of some WRs in catching otherwise, you would be a WR. I personally would put the max on hands at 90 (Borderline High already)
That leaves Speed at 80, Hands, 90. Tight Ends need strength as they will be blocking occasionally in some sets.
Strength should be around 80-85 as well. Don't think the Tight Ends should be stronger than Defensive Ends, so I think an 85 max cap here is best.
Remember, Tight Ends shouldn't be like WRs and catch everything, even if it is their specialty. Their Run Block and Pass Block stats should be higher than WRs, which would balance them out.
Max Agility for a TE should be around 75-80 since Blocking uses Agility as well to catchup with Edge Rushers. Agility also would help them on the field getting past Defenders.
I'm just saying this vaguely for every archetype TE since I didn't want to go through EVERY single archetype. You can apply it to every archetype from what I said. We don't want to make TE's the best position in the game.
*The TE position has a problem - White Cornerback - 08-12-2017
(08-12-2017, 04:27 PM)Blaster Wrote:No, TE's don't need more speed. Their max on any build should be about 80. 85 is too high imo. I don't think a TE should be running anywhere close to a 90 speed CB.
The hands should increase. 90-95 max, you aren't supposed to be at the same level of some WRs in catching otherwise, you would be a WR. I personally would put the max on hands at 90 (Borderline High already)
That leaves Speed at 80, Hands, 90. Tight Ends need strength as they will be blocking occasionally in some sets.
Strength should be around 80-85 as well. Don't think the Tight Ends should be stronger than Defensive Ends, so I think an 85 max cap here is best.
Remember, Tight Ends shouldn't be like WRs and catch everything, even if it is their specialty. Their Run Block and Pass Block stats should be higher than WRs, which would balance them out.
Max Agility for a TE should be around 75-80 since Blocking uses Agility as well to catchup with Edge Rushers. Agility also would help them on the field getting past Defenders.
I'm just saying this vaguely for every archetype TE since I didn't want to go through EVERY single archetype. You can apply it to every archetype from what I said. We don't want to make TE's the best position in the game.
Agreed that tight ends speed should cap out at 80 tops/possibly 85. Their hands needs a buff to. Strength agreed again should max at 80. Agility should also be 75-80 like blaster said.
*The TE position has a problem - evryday - 08-12-2017
Confirmed making an OL to play TE.
*The TE position has a problem - Player1 - 08-12-2017
I had seriously considered switching to Athletic Lineman because it boosts every stat except hands. I agree with your post, I think the faster TEs should be able to keep up with LBs and Safeties, it seems ridiculous that they are some of the least athletic people on the field. As far as Blocking TE, I think adding a little speed and hands would be sensible, but mostly I think the two blocking stats need to be upped to 80. Having a cap at 70 without having a strength advantage over anyone really limits your ability.
*The TE position has a problem - Sweetwater - 08-13-2017
I'll just say this. Using the 2017 NFL Combine as a scale, here are the average 40 yard dash times for different positional groups.
WR: 4.4-4.6
TE: 4.5-4.7
DB: 4.4-4.6
OL: 5.1-5.5
RB: 4.4-4.7
LB: 4.6-4.8
To take it a step further, here are the average combine 40 times of all positions from wikipedia
![[Image: GE4ERPU.jpg]](http://i.imgur.com/GE4ERPU.jpg)
I can understand why WRs, DBs, and RBs are at a max of 100, but TE's are usually as fast or faster than LBs, and not that much slower than WRs, especially the Vertical Threat TE's like Vernon Davis (4.38), Evan Engram (4.42), Tony Gonzalez (4.49) Eric Ebron (4.5), and OJ Howard (4.51). In fact, most of the successful TEs run sub 4.7, and are only getting faster.
Looking at it another way, in the last 5 years, the top speed, in MPH, of the league's fastest WRs and CBs was between 22-22.6 MPH. Vernon Davis hit 21.9 and Travis Kelce hit 21.3, and Kelce is 6'6" 260. For reference, the fastest Mike Vick (arguably the fastest QB ever) hit was 21.7, which was faster than Adrian Peterson ever hit.
I guess what I'm saying, is that if LBs and QBs can hit 90, TEs should be able to as well. I think you guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating how fast some TEs are. Sure, blocking or Red Zone threats shouldn't get to 90. But, in the modern NFL, which I watch way too much of, and know way too much about for my own good, a Vertical Threat TE is literally just a WR who's a bit too tall and a bit to heavy to be as agile as necessary for the next level.
*The TE position has a problem - Bzerkap - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 12:07 AM)Sweetwater Wrote:I'll just say this. Using the 2017 NFL Combine as a scale, here are the average 40 yard dash times for different positional groups.Yea piggybacking off your comment. The modern receiving TE is just a really big, tall, strong WR. Where they usually lack is in the footspeed/footwork department which hinders their route running ability. I don't think the receiving TE runs more than 3 or 4 routes, and none very complicated or precise.
WR: 4.4-4.6
TE: 4.5-4.7
DB: 4.4-4.6
OL: 5.1-5.5
RB: 4.4-4.7
LB: 4.6-4.8
To take it a step further, here are the average combine 40 times of all positions from wikipedia
I can understand why WRs, DBs, and RBs are at a max of 100, but TE's are usually as fast or faster than LBs, and not that much slower than WRs, especially the Vertical Threat TE's like Vernon Davis (4.38), Evan Engram (4.42), Tony Gonzalez (4.49) Eric Ebron (4.5), and OJ Howard (4.51). In fact, most of the successful TEs run sub 4.7, and are only getting faster.
Looking at it another way, in the last 5 years, the top speed, in MPH, of the league's fastest WRs and CBs was between 22-22.6 MPH. Vernon Davis hit 21.9 and Travis Kelce hit 21.3, and Kelce is 6'6" 260. For reference, the fastest Mike Vick (arguably the fastest QB ever) hit was 21.7, which was faster than Adrian Peterson ever hit.
I guess what I'm saying, is that if LBs and QBs can hit 90, TEs should be able to as well. I think you guys are SERIOUSLY underestimating how fast some TEs are. Sure, blocking or Red Zone threats shouldn't get to 90. But, in the modern NFL, which I watch way too much of, and know way too much about for my own good, a Vertical Threat TE is literally just a WR who's a bit too tall and a bit to heavy to be as agile as necessary for the next level.
If anything TEs should be limited in agility.
I might be wrong in all this though.
*The TE position has a problem - 124715 - 08-13-2017
(08-12-2017, 01:27 PM)Blaster Wrote:No, TE's don't need more speed. Their max on any build should be about 80. 85 is too high imo. I don't think a TE should be running anywhere close to a 90 speed CB.
The hands should increase. 90-95 max, you aren't supposed to be at the same level of some WRs in catching otherwise, you would be a WR. I personally would put the max on hands at 90 (Borderline High already)
That leaves Speed at 80, Hands, 90. Tight Ends need strength as they will be blocking occasionally in some sets.
Strength should be around 80-85 as well. Don't think the Tight Ends should be stronger than Defensive Ends, so I think an 85 max cap here is best.
Remember, Tight Ends shouldn't be like WRs and catch everything, even if it is their specialty. Their Run Block and Pass Block stats should be higher than WRs, which would balance them out.
Max Agility for a TE should be around 75-80 since Blocking uses Agility as well to catchup with Edge Rushers. Agility also would help them on the field getting past Defenders.
I'm just saying this vaguely for every archetype TE since I didn't want to go through EVERY single archetype. You can apply it to every archetype from what I said. We don't want to make TE's the best position in the game.
All of this is true, but for some archetypes (namely Vertical Threat), there should be more speed than 80. 90 is a little dangerous, but I don't think that 85 would have much impact. Also, the sim doesn't use TEs very much (believe me) so the changes would have a limited impact.
*The TE position has a problem - timeconsumer - 08-13-2017
(08-13-2017, 08:40 AM)124715 Wrote:All of this is true, but for some archetypes (namely Vertical Threat), there should be more speed than 80. 90 is a little dangerous, but I don't think that 85 would have much impact. Also, the sim doesn't use TEs very much (believe me) so the changes would have a limited impact.
As it stands right now the vertical threat TE is worse than the Red Zone Threat WR in my opinion. Might as well just make a red zone threat WR and plug him in at TE.
Player Archetype: Vertical Threat (Eg. Jimmy Graham, Jordan Reed)
Player Attributes
TPE Available: 50
(MAX: 80) - Strength: 40
(MAX: 85) - Agility: 50
(MAX: 25) - Arm: 1
(MAX: 75) - Intelligence: 45
(MAX: 25) - Throwing Accuracy: 1
(MAX: 50) - Tackling: 25
(MAX: 80) - Speed: 55
(MAX: 80) - Hands: 55
(MAX: 50) - Pass Blocking: 25
(MAX: 50) - Run Blocking: 25
(MAX: 100) - Endurance: 65
(MAX: 25) - Kick Power: 1
(MAX: 25) - Kick Accuracy: 1
Player Archetype: Red Zone Threat (Eg. Mike Evans, Kelvin Benjamin)
Player Attributes
TPE Available: 50
(MAX: 75) Strength: 45
(MAX: 90) Agility: 55
(MAX: 25) Arm: 1
(MAX: 85) Intelligence: 40
(MAX: 25) Throwing Accuracy: 1
(MAX: 35) Tackling: 20
(MAX: 85) Speed: 60
(MAX: 100) Hands: 65
(MAX: 35) Pass Blocking: 20
(MAX: 35) Run Blocking: 20
(MAX: 100) Endurance: 65
(MAX: 25) Kick Power: 1
(MAX: 25) Kick Accuracy: 1