A modest O-line proposal

[caltroit_red_flames]

I have run some actual numbers. Changing both of the OTs on a team from the 310lb bots to the 340lb human players assuming equal TPE and builds results in 9% more wins. I don't think I can overstate how significant this weight advantage is.

The rub is more than fair.

Wow that's wild, is there a significant increase if you change the C and G's as well or are tackles the only really impactful position on the line?

[timeconsumer]

Wow that's wild, is there a significant increase if you change the C and G's as well or are tackles the only really impactful position on the line?

Your OTs are the most impactful positions on the OL and the only ones impacted by the weight as OL bots are 340lb max for interior linemen. This was one of the things we did to balance production between DE and DT by giving DE a slightly softer opponent. C is probably the least important guy on the line in this sim. My usual mantra is that your three most important OL in this sim are the LT, RT, and RG.

If you look at overall production with personal stats as well you'll find the OTs on average produce the highest amount of pancakes when averaged across all skill levels, particularly the LT. They also tend to allow the most sacks compared to G or C however it's a pretty small margin between them.

[caltroit_red_flames]

Your OTs are the most impactful positions on the OL and the only ones impacted by the weight as OL bots are 340lb max for interior linemen. This was one of the things we did to balance production between DE and DT by giving DE a slightly softer opponent. C is probably the least important guy on the line in this sim. My usual mantra is that your three most important OL in this sim are the LT, RT, and RG.

If you look at overall production with personal stats as well you'll find the OTs on average produce the highest amount of pancakes when averaged across all skill levels, particularly the LT. They also tend to allow the most sacks compared to G or C however it's a pretty small margin between them.

That's disappointing in regards to C, I feel like they're hugely important to a good offensive line IRL

[Quigonginger]

What I have to say is that you are extrapolating based on almost no information. You are making a lot of assumptions based upon zero knowledge of the sim at all and no empirical data to back up anything.

You can see it in your questions themselves. You have no clue what the impact of a good or bad WR or QB or anything else is in this sim. You don't know how DL matches up against OL to produce stats. You don't know which OL positions are even affected the most by TPE.

And there's nothing wrong with not knowing. We all started out not knowing in this game. But there are a lot of people who do know a lot and if you'd take a moment to talk to them and learn how you can gather more information to get a greater understanding of what OL's true impact on this league is then we could actually get into a meaningful discussion. But you are choosing to ignore those resources to just spout the same old narrative that your rub isn't fair.

Now that I got some lunch I apologize for perceived belligerence but you're still adhominem and not addressing the stat I brought up. The ONE lineman currently playing NSFL ball. You're not saying anything about the extremely marginal downside every other team seems to see of not having one at all. And you're just writing off the more experienced players who also don't think the rub is fair.

You can talk about the sim all you want and everything we do know about it as a community and still ignore the problems in the community around the sim. Give me stats about probability of getting drafted at all, let alone in early rounds. Because i'm not saying change a thing about games or sim math. I'm saying consider and discuss community rules and the fallout of potential changes to slowly phasing-in one mandated OL slot.

[timeconsumer]

That's disappointing in regards to C, I feel like they're hugely important to a good offensive line IRL

Yeah but you could say that about a lot of things in this sim. Unfortunately that's the hand we've been dealt. It's by no means a useless position but you'd be much better off putting your best guy at LT or RT. Just like how you don't want a 1200 TPE kicker (sorry @run_CMC) or a 1200 TPE blocking back.

Maybe there are ways to adjust for all those positions. We took a pretty good stab at it way back when and I have since hung up the cleats on that role. I think we accomplished a lot but it also caused so many problems and headaches with all those archetype overhauls and custom playbook modifications to get where we are today that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze to do it all over again.

[caltroit_red_flames]

Yeah but you could say that about a lot of things in this sim. Unfortunately that's the hand we've been dealt. It's by no means a useless position but you'd be much better off putting your best guy at LT or RT. Just like how you don't want a 1200 TPE kicker (sorry @run_CMC) or a 1200 TPE blocking back.

Maybe there are ways to adjust for all those positions. We took a pretty good stab at it way back when and I have since hung up the cleats on that role. I think we accomplished a lot but it also caused so many problems and headaches with all those archetype overhauls and custom playbook modifications to get where we are today that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze to do it all over again.

There is talk of upgrading the sim at some point because of the issue with keys not being sold anymore right? I wonder if things could be changed up a little during the migration.

In any case I agree, you guys have done a great job with what you've been given.

Wait, I mean GIVE US A FAIR RUB

[timeconsumer]

Now that I got some lunch I apologize for perceived belligerence but you're still adhominem and not addressing the stat I brought up. The ONE lineman currently playing NSFL ball. You're not saying anything about the extremely marginal downside every other team seems to see of not having one at all. And you're just writing off the more experienced players who also don't think the rub is fair.

You can talk about the sim all you want and everything we do know about it as a community and still ignore the problems in the community around the sim. Give me stats about probability of getting drafted at all, let alone in early rounds. Because i'm not saying change a thing about games or sim math. I'm saying consider and discuss community rules and the fallout of potential changes to slowly phasing-in one mandated OL slot.

There's one Active OL in the NSFL because Beaver is basically the only one to actually play that role since like....S4? I'm not going to argue that there wasn't a culture of telling people not to create as OL, or to position change away from it. That 100% happened and still does. But that wasn't an issue of rules not favoring player OL, they definitely are better than bots in several ways. That was an issue of culture. And I don't believe in changing rules to try and change a culture. If anything you guys are already changing the culture around OL with how many are creating and steadfastly pursuing it.

I'm sorry but you can't expect to come in and get a rule change just because you feel like it makes sense if you don't want to bring actual data. The data is already there, player OL provide a very significant boost to a team for less money.

[caltroit_red_flames]

There's one Active OL in the NSFL because Beaver is basically the only one to actually play that role since like....S4? I'm not going to argue that there wasn't a culture of telling people not to create as OL, or to position change away from it. That 100% happened and still does. But that wasn't an issue of rules not favoring player OL, they definitely are better than bots in several ways. That was an issue of culture. And I don't believe in changing rules to try and change a culture. If anything you guys are already changing the culture around OL with how many are creating and steadfastly pursuing it.

I'm sorry but you can't expect to come in and get a rule change just because you feel like it makes sense if you don't want to bring actual data. The data is already there, player OL provide a very significant boost to a team for less money.

I wish all GMs knew that, hopefully this class changes some views on this.

[Quigonginger]

Yeah but you could say that about a lot of things in this sim. Unfortunately that's the hand we've been dealt. It's by no means a useless position but you'd be much better off putting your best guy at LT or RT. Just like how you don't want a 1200 TPE kicker (sorry @run_CMC) or a 1200 TPE blocking back.

Maybe there are ways to adjust for all those positions. We took a pretty good stab at it way back when and I have since hung up the cleats on that role. I think we accomplished a lot but it also caused so many problems and headaches with all those archetype overhauls and custom playbook modifications to get where we are today that I'm not sure the juice would be worth the squeeze to do it all over again.

So why not remove the position entirely? You admit it's important, at least at Tackle, you allow people to play it, but it seems like a long time ago everyone decided it's just "not fun" and didn't mandate at least one like every other position. I'm arguing it can be fun, we have a sizable amount of dudes that do think it's fun. A small change would shake things up for theree positions in what I think is a positive way (OL DT and DE). But community rules and common strategy are the only thing hampering Olinemen right now. Idgaf about sim math until I can actually get in game.

Edit: The key thing IMO is that in real NFL games we have seen idiots like Chaz Green at LT. We see average dudes, and we see greats. We don't see any of those in NSFL because there are no Chaz Greens. The worst you can do is like 5xErick Flowers. And you won't get noticed at all unless you're Tyron Smith.

[timeconsumer]

So why not remove the position entirely? You admit it's important, at least at Tackle, you allow people to play it, but it seems like a long time ago everyone decided it's just "not fun" and didn't mandate at least one like every other position. I'm arguing it can be fun, we have a sizable amount of dudes that do think it's fun. A small change would shake things up for theree positions in what I think is a positive way (OL DT and DE). But community rules and common strategy are the only thing hampering Olinemen right now. Idgaf about sim math until I can actually get in game.

Removing the position entirely has been on the table many times. It was even on the table way back when we did the OL bot implementation back before season 4. The reason why is that we could never really gain any consensus among GMs and HOs about it to pass a vote. Democracy is like that sometimes.

Y'all got what, 10ish OL in this draft right now? Here's my proposal: Stay Active. You'll be better in the DSFL no matter what cause DSFL OL are garbage. If y'all can earn so much as 350 TPE you're already good enough to start in the NSFL because you provide a very nice boost over the 350 TPE tier OL bots.

But as it stands trying to require teams all carry one OL when there are 10 teams and 10 OL to choose from when we all know the odds of any player at any position staying active even to the NSFL draft are about 50% is something that will never pass.

If we get to the point where we see a sustained supply of player OL then we have a chance to find a way to help its growth.