*Carmel Gibson has spent too much TPE

[Oles]

Except it appears that he didn't actually "add" anything. It looks like it was an error made at creation which should have been caught before the update thread was even created.

As things stand, there is no reason to believe this was deliberate. So why all the pitchforks?

Suspend the guy until a solution can be found, that's fair.
Reset him to 50 TPE, that's fair.
Hell, even forced retirement wouldn't really be unfair (especially considering he's inactive)
Bring in new measures to prevent this happening again, makes perfect sense.

But how do you punish someone for a crime that nobody actually committed as far as we can tell? That's all I'm saying.

I don't think this was deliberate, I just think it was an easily avoidable mistake that could have been caught by an updater. The thing is it wasn't an error made it creation, because he would have never been approved if it was, he accidentally put 80 TPE into his character at first, and was not approved until after he fixed the mistake. We can rule out that he just made a mistake at creation, as when he did make mistake it was caught, so he did add the extra TPE.

[124715]

Unless I'm misreading things here, it looks like those TPE were added at creation though... so doesn't that mean that what actually happened is his player was approved/updated incorrectly.

That's... not really his fault.


Except it appears that he didn't actually "add" anything. It looks like it was an error made at creation which should have been caught before the update thread was even created.

As things stand, there is no reason to believe this was deliberate. So why all the pitchforks?

Suspend the guy until a solution can be found, that's fair.
Reset him to 50 TPE, that's fair.
Hell, even forced retirement wouldn't really be unfair (especially considering he's inactive)
Bring in new measures to prevent this happening again, makes perfect sense.

But how do you punish someone for a crime that nobody actually committed as far as we can tell? That's all I'm saying.

The thing is, a rookie mentor swung around and noticed he'd spent too much TPE. Gibson supposedly fixed it, and then the mentor didn't say another word. Somehow, later, he'd actually increased his TPE spent!

Incite told him he'd spent 80 TPE, asked him to reduce.
Gibson "fixed" it and incite didn't say another word.
Noble approved it as well.
Instead, Gibson had spent 160 TPE.
IDK how it happened.

I'll advocate for forced retirement, as it's not like he's coming back. If he was an active player, suspension would suffice.

[124715]

So, I think the biggest issue is that updaters need to know what kind of issues to look for.  I think Gibson should not be allowed to participate in any more sims in any season so that other, legal TEs can pass him in stats.  Sanderson can be their starter.

As a recommendation, I think we need to reorganize updaters not by team, but by position.  If Gibson were checked by someone who ONLY looked at TEs, I think the high values would have jumped out.

The Hawks HAVE benefitted, but I am also concerned about precedent.  I am, however, more concerned about an unfair victory.  There are 3 NSFC teams basically dead even in the playoff hunt.  1 of those teams had a significant advantage they didn't deserve.  I propose that the Hawks lose all tiebreakers for this year's race.  That won't hurt them long term, but it will prevent them from unfairly benefitting from this too much.

I like your tiebreaker suggestion. The problem with position based updaters is, not only is it a lot harder (you have to work on 8 spread sheets instead of 1), but the work would be spread out unevenly, 'cause there are more of one position than others.

It also makes it more likely for you to update yourself or your team.

[4D Chess]

Unless I'm misreading things here, it looks like those TPE were added at creation though... so doesn't that mean that what actually happened is his player was approved/updated incorrectly.

That's... not really his fault.


Except it appears that he didn't actually "add" anything. It looks like it was an error made at creation which should have been caught before the update thread was even created.

As things stand, there is no reason to believe this was deliberate. So why all the pitchforks?

Suspend the guy until a solution can be found, that's fair.
Reset him to 50 TPE, that's fair.
Hell, even forced retirement wouldn't really be unfair (especially considering he's inactive)
Bring in new measures to prevent this happening again, makes perfect sense.

But how do you punish someone for a crime that nobody actually committed as far as we can tell? That's all I'm saying.

Deleted my comments because I didn't see this post. I agree, suspend the player but no need to punish the hawks GMs (unless of course we find out they had prior knowledge, which I sincerely doubt)

[37thchamber]

We can rule out that he just made a mistake at creation, as when he did make mistake it was caught, so he did add the extra TPE.

I'm not so sure...

If this was the case, then wouldn't his player page have been updated by an updater since, and therefore have the "last edited by..." line?

Or are we suggesting that in the brief window between being someone approving the build, and the thread actually being locked, he went back and edited the initial post? I mean, that's entirely possible, but I dunno if there's any way to prove it. And without any proof, I don't think it would be right to call this cheating. If we do, then ANY mistake like this will have to be treated the same way, and that's madness.

Again, not saying you're wrong. I just think we should be careful about how we react to this.

He's not an active user, so please tell me what the benefit of keeping him around is OTHER than the fact he's a good TE for your team....

Uhhh... I never suggested keeping him around. I actually said suspension, reduction of TPE and even retirement would all be fair. Calm down.

I'm mostly concerned about the idea that this looks like an error which should have been caught at multiple stages, but wasn't ... and yet people are talking about this being deliberate cheating without any proof, and talking about punishing people for something we don't know was actually a violation of site rules.

[7hawk77]

The problem is the hawks organization gained from this mishap.

It's not like the hawks organization planned for this to happen, but they did benefit from it, so they should also suffer for it to balance it out.

[kckolbe]

I like your tiebreaker suggestion. The problem with position based updaters is, not only is it a lot harder (you have to work on 8 spread sheets instead of 1), but the work would be spread out unevenly, 'cause there are more of one position than others.

It also makes it more likely for you to update yourself or your team.

I have no solution for the spreadsheets factor, but just as you don't update your team, you don't update your position.

[37thchamber]

The problem with position based updaters is, not only is it a lot harder (you have to work on 8 spread sheets instead of 1), but the work would be spread out unevenly, 'cause there are more of one position than others.

It also makes it more likely for you to update yourself or your team.

Is there a TPE calculation next to the player in these spreadsheets? That would flag up discrepancies immediately. And it can be done in Excel/Googledocs with array formulas.

If the player stats at last update are visible when inputting the new ones, and the TPE is calculated, we can avoid this happening in future at least... no?

(Legit asking, I have no idea what these spreadsheets look like)

[7hawk77]

My proposal.

For every time a team played the hawks while this was happening. They get to increase their TE attributes by 160 TPE the next time they play the hawks until the number of games the hawks did this against said team equals the number of times the said team increases their own TE attributes.

[124715]

I have no solution for the spreadsheets factor, but just as you don't update your team, you don't update your position.

If you don't update your position, I think you kinda lose the advantage of going position wise. Also, this wasn't the updater's fault, as this rarely happens. I'm just saying the updater was another person who it slipped by. Gibson for some reason made an update thread without earning any TPE. Usually, updaters check that they follow the update scale when they increase their attributes. This was more on the people who approved him.