Kyamprac Player Progression Head Removal

[qWest]

Hi all, as one of the voting members of HO, I wanted to share my line of thinking.

First of all, it was a very close vote. I'm sure like me, others found it extremely difficult to decide on which side to land on here. Ultimately I did vote for a change in leadership. The first thing I want to say is that there was no attempt to unduly sway voters made by anyone, least of all Steg.

I think it's important with these votes to separate the facts of the issue and the user that would be on the receiving end of the punishment. In this instance, I found that really difficult to do, having had nothing but fantastic interactions with Kya in the past.

For me, the continued acceptance of late tasks wasn't something I considered strong enough for removal. As has been pointed out by many people, this isn't a new issue that has happened under Kya's watch, even though the rate of accepted late submissions did increase across the team. If it had been just that and HO only got around to looking into it now, I believe a warning would have sufficed along with a nudge for the team to enforce the deadlines more reliably.

Instead, there were two main incidents that led to me voting for a change in leadership rather than a suspension.

1) Submitting predictions 53 minutes after the deadline, then grading that task and awarding TPE. Awarding themselves invalid TPE isn't something any other grader has ever done (at least since S16 when the data was pulled from)

2) Grading S25 PT5 (first one graded since S24 PT2 with no others graded since), awarding invalid TPE to the lone late submission, r0tz, a fellow Dallas WR member

Any attempt to conclude whether these two incidents were deliberate or not would be pure speculation and counter-productive, especially when the individual has stated they were not. But at best, it's a bad look. These were probably the two worst looking individual incidents on paper across all graders over the the last 11 seasons, so the fact that both involved the current head of the department was where I saw an issue.

I know that most people will read the above and still conclude that a warning would have been more appropriate, but I can only speak for my own interpretation of the standards that I believe department heads should be held to.

I definitely think there are things that we as HO could have done a lot better in arriving at this decision. I'll be pushing for us to have an internal 'debrief' so that we can reflect and learn on what was not handled well. Off the top of my head, here are some things that I know we should have done better:
1) Gone into more detail in the punishment thread. Data and more context might have helped provide clarity from the start
2) Spoken to Kya a lot earlier on in the process
3) Been more measured with our replies so as to not exacerbate what is a very emotional situation for all involved

And please, if you have some feedback about what we could have done better and that we can incorporate into future decision making, please do drop me a DM. I and others genuinely want to help make HO and the league better, and I know that we need to do better to earn back your trust.

Regardless of disagreeing with your decision and the way that this was handled (as you've acknowledged), I really appreciate you stepping out into the line of fire to explain your vote here.

[DarknessRising]

Opera_Phantom

So the fact that HO decided to remove her from the job, in what seems an unanimous decision,

The vote consisted of multiple parts, concerning the decision of what happens to the TPE (removed to bank, removed immediately, not at all) what happens to Kya (Relieve has head, propoation, stay as head) and what to do with PPT team (warn, more action, nothing). 


Out of the 3 votes, only the vote to regarding the PPT team was unanimous, to warn them, the other two were split and its clear which vote ended up as the majority

[King Jellyfish]

Jesus christ this shit should be a fun experience and not a fucking job.

Feels like this is getting somewhat lost in decision-making. Structure and rules are important, but this is just disproportionate.

[Opera_Phantom]

Opera_Phantom

So the fact that HO decided to remove her from the job, in what seems an unanimous decision,

The vote consisted of multiple parts, concerning the decision of what happens to the TPE (removed to bank, removed immediately, not at all) what happens to Kya (Relieve has head, propoation, stay as head) and what to do with PPT team (warn, more action, nothing). 


Out of the 3 votes, only the vote to regarding the PPT team was unanimous, to warn them, the other two were split and its clear which vote ended up as the majority

Thank you for the clarification

[enigmatic]

As an auditor and updater i just wanna chime in on the whole deadline shit.

I don't give a single flying fuck if a user posted in the AC thread late. He posted in the thread and thats it for me. Some Updaters handle that differently but we don't have a strict deadline for that. It's also with leeway.

I handle it that way: AC was open and user posted in it? He completed the task. Fine me all you want for that but get that fucking head out of your ass and stop sticking to the deadlines as if it is a crime to post something a bit later.

Sim hasn't started when the predictions got posted? Who the fuck cares. Let him in.

A user posted his PT some hours late? Who cares he still wrote something/designed a graphic for the task.

Jesus christ this shit should be a fun experience and not a fucking job.

Just close the thread for PTs when the deadline is over and you're good to go. But when the thread and with that the task, is still open and an user takes his time to complete the task it should be granted.


/rant

You sum up my feelings about the league perfectly and I wish it was run like this by everyone involved. We are here on our own time and take time out of our days to write stories about dot football and then some people take it a step further and even hold league jobs for which they aren't paid actual money and they get dragged through the dirt on mistakes no one acually gives a flying fuck about. Remove the tpe, have a talk with Kya about making sure this does not happen anymore. Done. But no, it's so much more fun for HO to show us how big their dicks are so they hand out a ridiculous punishment instead.

HO seriously needs to take a look at itself and remember what this league is all about: having fun and making friends.

These constant witch hunts and disproportionate punishments ruin the experience of so many people, mine included. ISFL was always a fertile land for drama but lately the head office has been taking a bigger and bigger place in it. You guys are here to help run this league not treat it like your family business.

[iamslm22]

It was a different time back then, when heads were allowed to be heads.  I made a lot of decisions on my own back then and never thought they would be audited like this.  My decisions were made with the leagues best interests at heart.  And I stand by them.

I also used to have an agreement with @iamslm22 that if I forgot to submit my weekly predictions before we watched the sims together that morning I would just copy whatever he had submitted earlier. And if he forgot he would copy my predictions. I don't remember what our agreement was if we both forgot, I think it was that we would both select all home teams but I'm not sure if that ever happened or not.

Anyways one day @Trautner messaged me all confused "dude you submitted predictions after you already simmed this morning, what gives?" and I tell him "Oh yeah no big deal slm and I have a thing going it's all on the up and up" and traut is like "uhhhhhhh....no. we're just gonna go ahead and stop that shit right now."

And that's why simmers don't do prediction TPE anymore.

Did you know the person who watches the sim gets like 10M a season now? I'm owed like 50-60M. #Corruption

[timeconsumer]

tc has so many trophies he has a "view all" button, this is getting ridiculous

I'm still missing my most recent HOF trophy for Cooter though so the case is still one short

[ReverendOReily]

Hi person from the future who's reading this thread several months later to catch up on hot forum drama. I hope you're having a nice day.

How many more times will HO take the nuclear option in a situation like this while simultaneously keeping most of the userbase in the dark about what exactly happened/why you reached the conclusions you did? Do you guys get kicks out of watching the poor interns communicate with the angry mobs? How many more times will we hear "yeah the punishment might've been harsh but that's what appeals is there for" from a member of HO, as if a punishment thread and the resulting forum shitshow can just be CTRL-Z'd and wiped away? As if Appeals team only exists to unfuck situations like this one. As if being the subject of a punishment thread doesn't affect your reputation in this league and its affiliates - don't worry, if your punishment is successfully appealed, it'll be like it never even happened! Except not really.

Did nobody in HO see this reaction coming? Nobody stopped to think "if we fire (without warning, and without providing any evidence upfront) this loved member of the community who has put a lot of effort into making the league a better place, how upset will people be?" I'm sure someone had that thought, and I wouldn't be terribly surprised if it was met with something along the lines of "whatever they complain about everything we do anyway" in response. Maybe I'm just being pessimistic, but it sure does sometimes feel like certain members of HO view the playerbase as a general nuisance. When I read condescending comments from members of HO about how we need to all put our reading comprehension caps on, it really doesn't do anything to sweeten that taste in my mouth. 

It's cool to see HO members in this thread recognize that things went wrong throughout this process. It's cool to see Darkness explain his point of view in this thread - that kind of transparency is incredibly helpful, even if it feels like you're shouting into a brick wall at times. It's cool to see HO members like Swanty acknowledge the need for a postmortem of this situation, so that HO can talk through what they feel might've gone wrong. I hope such a postmortem does happen - wouldn't it be lovely to have some evidence come out *before* the forum shitshow occurs, instead of evidence only ever being revealed because there's an angry mob in the punishment thread?

I'd like to end this diatribe two ways - first, by apologizing to Kya for the fact that her name is now attached to the most replied to/viewed punishment thread in league history (and yet we've still got people saying "it's ok appeals will clean this up nicely don't you worry" lmfao). All because she tried to apply a little leniency to this shouldn't-be-super-serious forum game that we all play. Or was it because of that 2.5 TPE she gave herself and r0tz? Who even knows anymore?
Second, if you ever find yourself wanting to complain in management chat about the fact that you missed out on 2 TPE, just shut up. Things will go over a lot smoother if you just keep it to yourself.

[deadlunatic]

I would also like to add my thoughts as a fairly new user.

First off, thanks to Darkness for trying to explain all this to us.

Secondly, I did want to mention that while the mindset of wrong is wrong, is correct. But as someone else mentioned, lumping all wrong together into the same amount/level of wrong is just silly. I get that rules are made for a reason. But in no world should you be saying intent doesn't matter at all. Accidents happen. So by the logic mentioned, making 25 multis is the same as granting someone some late TPE? Murder and speeding are also the same? Either way, the rules were broken, so let's just punish all wrong doing the same to make this easier for everyone. How many people currently on the HO haven't made any mistakes in this league so far? How was your mistake handled?

But I can say, stuff like does not make me want to recreate when it is time. If I was a newer player, I am not sure I would continue playing. This just reeks of people in power who don't think the masses need to know why they make the decisions they make, but we should definitely blindly follow them. (obviously not all of the HO members). Then you have some inflammatory comments from HO related people that doesn't help the look either. It really isn't a good look for a free to play fun game that some of us like to play to give our brains some relaxation time. Then we get stuff like this ruining all that.

[Hallmonitor_20]

Jeremiah Zelos